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Post by purr on Jun 15, 2020 11:21:31 GMT
OK OK I PROBABLY MISSPELLED As I splained often here we don't get Fox News in the Netherlands and watching it online on a PC or smartphone just isn't the experience I get from the television: 24/7 CNN in all its resplendent glory. Lots of good stuff in there seriously, also Wolf Blitzer's scowl has a definitely hypnotic quality, and I sometimes imagine I'm falling in love with Chris Cuomo. Must be due to the late hour: The Situation Room and Cuomo Prime Time are shown here between 00 and 04 am . But it is the apparent spate of reports on US police brutality, with national news media following the CNN line, that is leaving me (and I know I am not alone!) feeling increasingly worried and frustrated about my impression that the way the reporting and (incredibly rich) video footage is framed the American public (and the whole world regurgitating these distorted narratives) is manipulated into throwing the officers involved in these arrests (with race and fatal outcomes in the mix) to the wolves, denunciation swiftly spreading to any fellow officers on scene, then their department, then including all who each working day put in the effort, take the risks 'to protect and to serve'. WHY I AM GETTING WORKED UP
The unprecedented availability of video of these applied force incidents, sec cams, onlookers phones and police body cam allows us to compare (if so inclined, many people appear willing to be TOLD by commentators WHAT IT IS THEY ARE SEEING) the visuals/audio recordings with the analysis and comments. And here it is. Unbelievably in every one of 'police brutality' reports I have been following the past weeks the (edited from available originals online) video yielded vitally different information than the CNN (or Dutch media) reporting!
I'm upset because I feel that news audiences are given false information, "sparking outrage", leading to false beliefs, motivating wrong action, well.. call it downright crazy stuff like proposing 'defunding' or 'abolishing' the Police. And of course general mayhem that's bad for America, its people's well being, its stability and perception by international adversaries.
There's lots more detail to be filled in later but the basic list of in my belief badly reported 'police brutality' incidents includes the latest shown. The Rayshard Brooks shooting. Also one which is happily non fatal, that of the Tulsa teens getting stopped, then arrested on suspicion of 'yay walking'. I'll start with my impressions of George Floyd's fatal arrest, text taken from my post in member Plutronus' thread. We should perhaps reconnect with the Eric Garner and Trayvon Martin cases and then some. Let's go...
I feel a sense of concern bordering on deep apprehension over what the hell is happening in American society since George Floyd's botched arrest. To position myself here, the rioting (too often misreported as 'protests' in international media) I totally reject. I suspect some of the looting is nothing more than opportunistic gang activity, criminals callously using Floyd's death as cover for a hugely profitable heist. But I sense big problems with the (more or less) peaceful protests as well. Parts are OK: on the face of it a team of police officers caused mr. Floyd's death while arresting him. Creating a ruckus (with a wealth of video footage as proof) to ensure that the arresting officers get arrested and charged themselves is responsible citizenship. ...DONE... After that the protesters kinda lost me, the officers will go before the courts. WHAT MORE CAN YOU ASK FOR? Effectively demanding the head perpetrator (alleged) be convicted of murder, and a racist one to boot infringes on Judicial independence and seems to threaten mob justice. Everybody knows they're guilty, right... right...? I'm all in favor of fighting racism in America and everywhere, but that is imo a matter of politics, not necessarily the same issue as 'getting justice' for George Floyd who lost his life, and the four arresting officers Chauvin and his partner Thao, assisted by Lane and Kueng. Drowning out the shouting I ask WHAT HAPPENED. Asking as if I don't know and want to find out. GEORGE FLOYD - A BASIC TIMELINE On the evening of Memorial Day, May 25, 2020, Floyd purchased cigarettes at Cup Foods, a grocery store at the intersection of East 38th Street and Chicago Avenue in the Powderhorn Park neighborhood of Minneapolis. A store employee believed Floyd had paid with a counterfeit $20 bill. Just before 8:00 pm, two Cup Foods employees left the store and crossed the street to an SUV parked in front of a restaurant; Floyd was in the driver's seat and two other adults were in the vehicle. The employees demanded that Floyd return the cigarettes, and he refused. The interaction was filmed by the restaurant's security camera. At 8:01, a store employee called police to report that Floyd had passed "fake bills" and was "awfully drunk" and "not in control of himself". At 8:08, Kueng and Lane arrived, briefly entering Cup Foods before crossing the street to Floyd's SUV. Lane drew his gun and ordered Floyd to put his hands on the steering wheel; Floyd complied and Lane holstered his weapon. Someone parked behind Floyd's SUV began recording a video at Following a brief struggle, Lane pulled Floyd from the SUV and handcuffed him. At 8:12, Kueng sat Floyd on the sidewalk against the wall in front of the restaurant. According to criminal complaints filed against the officers by state prosecutors, Floyd was "calm" and said "thank you" At 8:13, Kueng and Lane told Floyd he was under arrest and walked him to their police car across the street. Floyd fell to the ground next to the car; the officers picked him up and placed him against the car's door. According to prosecutors, Floyd told the officers that he was not resisting, but that he was claustrophobic and did not want to sit in the car. A Minneapolis Park Police officer arrived and guarded Floyd's vehicle (across the street by the restaurant) and the two people who had been in it with Floyd. At 8:17, a third police car arrived with officers Derek Michael Chauvin and Tou Thao, who joined Kueng and Lane. Chauvin assumed command. According to prosecutors, Floyd told the officers he could not breathe while they tried to force him into the car. Around 8:18, security footage from Cup Foods shows Kueng struggling with Floyd for at least a minute in the driver side backseat while Thao watches. At 8:19, standing on the passenger side of the vehicle, Chauvin pulled Floyd across the backseat from the driver side to the passenger side, then out of the car. Floyd, still handcuffed, fell to the pavement where he lay on his chest with his cheek to the ground. Floyd stopped moving around 8:20, though he was still conscious.
Multiple witnesses began to film the encounter, and their videos were circulated widely on the internet. At 8:20, a witness across the street began recording video showing Chauvin kneeling on Floyd's neck, Kueng applying pressure to Floyd's torso, and Lane applying pressure to Floyd's legs, while Thao stood nearby. This witness stopped filming when one of the officers ordered him to leave. Also at 8:20, a second person, standing near the entrance of Cup Foods, began recording the incident. Floyd can be heard repeatedly saying "I can't breathe", "Please", and "Mama"; Floyd repeated at least 16 times that he could not breathe. At one point a witness said: "You got him down. Let him breathe." After Floyd said, "I'm about to die", Chauvin told him to "relax". An officer asked Floyd, "What do you want?"; Floyd answered, "I can't breathe". Floyd states: "Please, the knee in my neck, I can't breathe." At approximately 8:22, the officers called for an ambulance on a non-emergency basis, escalating the call to emergency status a minute later. Chauvin continued to kneel on Floyd's neck. A passerby yelled to Floyd, "Well, get up, get in the car, man", and Floyd, still handcuffed and face down on the pavement, responded, "I can't", while Chauvin's knee remained on his neck. Floyd cried out "Mama!" twice. Floyd said, "My stomach hurts, my neck hurts, everything hurts", requested water, and begged, "Don't kill me." One witness pointed out that Floyd was bleeding from the nose. Another told the officers that Floyd was "not even resisting arrest right now". Thao countered that Floyd was "talking, he's fine"; a witness replied that Floyd "ain't fine ... Get him off the ground ... You could have put him in the car by now. He's not resisting arrest or nothing. You're enjoying it. Look at you. Your body language explains it." As Floyd continued to cry for help, Thao said to witnesses: "This is why you don't do drugs, kids." By 8:25, Floyd appeared unconscious, and bystanders confronted the officers about Floyd's condition. Chauvin pulled out mace to keep bystanders away as Thao moved between them and Chauvin. Bystanders repeatedly yelled that Floyd was "not responsive right now" and urged the officers to check his pulse. Kueng checked Floyd's wrist but found no pulse; the officers did not attempt to provide Floyd with medical assistance. According to the criminal complaint against Chauvin, Lane asked Chauvin twice if they should move Floyd onto his side, and Chauvin said no. A witness asked, "Did they fucking kill him?" At 8:27 pm, a Hennepin County ambulance arrived. Shortly thereafter, a young relative of the owner of Cup Foods attempted to intervene, but was pushed back by Thao. Emergency medical technicians checked Floyd's pulse. Chauvin kept his knee on Floyd's neck for almost a minute after the ambulance arrived, despite Floyd being silent and motionless. When he finally did lift his knee, it had been there for eight minutes and forty-six seconds. Around 8:29, Floyd was lifted by paramedics onto a stretcher, then loaded into an ambulance which departed for Hennepin County Medical Center. En route, the ambulance requested assistance from the Minneapolis Fire Department. At 8:32, firefighters arrived at Cup Foods; according to their report, the police officers gave no clear information regarding Floyd's condition or whereabouts, which delayed their ability to find the ambulance. Meanwhile, the ambulance reported that Floyd was entering cardiac arrest and again requested assistance, asking firefighters to meet them at the corner of 36th Street and Park Avenue. Five minutes later, the fire department reached the ambulance; two fire department medics who boarded the ambulance found Floyd unresponsive and pulseless. Floyd was pronounced dead at 9:25 at the Hennepin County Medical Center emergency room. Source: Killing of George Floyd - Wikipedia
The more complete picture will emerge during trial, when witnesses and (I hope, from an information standpoint) the defendant police officers will testify under oath as to what they heard and saw and did, and what their state of mind was as these fateful events transpired. But the as yet basic, relatively superficial timeline I found on Wikipedia (lacking all the 'why's I want answered) as I read through is heartrending. Seems at some point around 8:22 PM George Floyd knew he was going to die, he begged for his life with the police to no avail, called for his Mama and soon after the dead silence began, he was passing away. Dying for everyone is a big deal, it is a hard thing to do, and at this moment I am sad our fellow traveler under God's Heaven George Floyd had such a hard time of it. WHAT HAPPENED? Truth... I do not know. I will put my trust in the American justice system, rapturously listen to the Verdict, and then come to a private judgement of the heart, my personal opinion. There is a model forming in my mind now (2 cts. worth) which goes like this. Floyd paid for cigarettes at Cup Foods with a $20 bill that shop personnel believed to be counterfeit currency, so they called the police and confronted him and his friends sitting in their car in front of a Chinese restaurant across the road. First responders were officers Kueng and Lane and I believe it was with them mr. Floyd initiated a pattern of on-off compliance versus non-compliance plus erratic behavior: I presume he was asked to step out of his vehicle by Lane, which he didn't, so we see (multiple angles of video available) him being pulled out and with some difficulty getting handcuffed by Lane. Kueng then sits him against the wall of the restaurant, George now is polite and cooperative. Officers take him back crossing the road to Cup Foods, Floyd now struggles to avoid being placed in the cruiser claiming 'claustrophobia' (probably hard to swallow for Lane and Kueng since Floyd just had been stopped while sitting inside his own car!) as back up arrives in the form of Chauvin and Thao. As efforts continued to put him in the police car George Floyd began vocalizing 'he could not breathe'. I believe the two unbelievable claims of being claustrophobic and being unable to breathe inside a police vehicle led the four officers, now with veteran Chauvin in command, to assume Floyd was making it up as he went along, and perhaps even out of his efening mind. They suspected substance abuse. I note that repeating "I can't breathe" is a highly charged political slogan, going back to Eric Garner and earlier, and the officers may well have tagged him as a kind of big, strong, UNPREDICTABLE, drama queen. After Chauvin took him down and moved into a knee pindown, Floyd continued repeating "I can't breathe" at least 16 times within the time frame 8:20-8:22 pm. Chauvin made the (now seen as fatal) assessment that Floyd's cries and complaints were mere theater, more playing to his street audience, evidence of non-compliant intent, and continued the downward knee pressure to the suspect's neck area. Chauvin thought it was all an act and expected to eventually wear the big guy down, so he could eventually be placed in the cruiser. Worse, when around 8:22 Floyd fell silent, I think Chauvin thought HE PLAYED DEAD and continued to hold Floyd down! Chauvin ended the knee pindown only after nearly 9 minutes. If I am right officer Chauvin made a terrible error in judgement, one for which he must be held accountable by law, as must his support team for their roles, but this would not be murder. This is just my personal model of how George Floyd's arrest went horribly wrong. Not all the facts are in, any finding is possible, one that an American Court will rightfully decide. RAYSHARD BROOKS TRAFFIC STOP, ARREST AND SHOOTING
What I did just now (this came in during early morning) is forget the spoken comments on the news channels and watched the released body cam footage. Simple stuff but please try it: watch all of it, listen to mr. Brooks, the police officers and isolate frames of the violent interactions if you can. Rayshard Brooks attracted the attention of police by being parked, asleep in the road. Guy seemed out of it, police suspected him of DUI, Brooks subsequently failed the sobriety test. During arrest he resisted being handcuffed, wrestled away from the two officers restraining him, grabbed a taser from an officer's hand and ran. The pursuing officers saw him aim and fire a non lethal weapon in their direction. This is the most vital element imo: the officer in closest pursuit HAS HIS FIREARM HOLSTERED at the exact moment Rayshard Brooks discharges his captured police weapon at them. In a quick draw the officer (in a fraction of a second) returns fire and shoots mr. Brooks fatally. I'm no lawyer, but I'm pretty confident the above shows to any reasonable mind that these officers carried out their duty in accordance with the law of the land. They were fired upon with non lethal force, in full expectation of being incapacitated when hit by the taser in Rayshard's hand, so they were at a point in their mind considered a last resort. They had to shoot, and in such a fluid situation this means aiming center of body mass. Sadly, a bullet to the heart is known to be bad for your health, people die this way, as Rayshard Brooks did. I acknowledge him, without knowing him, as a precious fellow human being who is now lost to the world, no imagining what his folks are going through at this time. Terrible stuff. But for the life of me ...SOMEBODY EXPLAIN IT TO ME PLEASE... I don't get why the officer who responded to Brooks actions with deadly force was fired. Beyond comprehension. Police officer was doing his job.
purr (to be continued)
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2020 12:10:10 GMT
I support the police and the military. However, this Atlanta shooting leaves me very discouraged. At first, I only heard reports and envisioned a situation with the police at a face-to-face confrontation with someone who wants to shoot the Taser, grab the gun, kill the cops. After watching the video, it became clear this guy was just trying to get away. He used the Taser to stop the police from chasing him, he obviously didn’t think that they would kill him. He just wanted to run home.
So, I conclude at least two things. The prevalence of either rogue cops, racist cops, or miss trained cops or undertrained cops is probably higher than I imagined. This should be rectified.
Second, if approached by a cop (think that this guy could be a psycho) do everything he says whether you’re white or black. Let the court sorted it out later.
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Post by purr on Jun 15, 2020 13:25:02 GMT
I support the police and the military. However, this Atlanta shooting leaves me very discouraged. At first, I only heard reports and envisioned a situation with the police at a face-to-face confrontation with someone who wants to shoot the Taser, grab the gun, kill the cops. After watching the video, it became clear this guy was just trying to get away. He used the Taser to stop the police from chasing him, he obviously didn’t think that they would kill him. He just wanted to run home. So, I conclude at least two things. The prevalence of either rogue cops, racist cops, or miss trained cops or undertrained cops is probably higher than I imagined. This should be rectified. Second, if approached by a cop (think that this guy could be a psycho) do everything he says whether you’re white or black. Let the court sorted it out later. I will disagree with you on some points, Mrgort. No matter in what direction Brooks was running, once he was seen aiming a taser in the direction of an officer in pursuit (who, if incapacitated, could expect to be relieved of his sidearm), he should expect to be met with deadly force. Now it appears this suspect WAS NOT RATIONAL due to at least alcohol, maybe additional substance abuse, but that is a risk he took, getting into a car, entering traffic opening to the possibility of running into police. No idea how well trained the responding officers were. My guess from my own background, pretty dam well, but that will become clear later on. The point I'm trying to make, even if you were at the absolute peak of your abilities... you can't have a suspect arrested for driving under the influence running around (or 'home' whatever) with a live taser. So you go after him, got to secure him along with that police weapon. If he then proceeds to discharge that weapon towards yourself and a fellow officer, well.... it has happened right? Fully agreed on dealing with the police when stopped. Be respectful, cooperate. purr
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2020 13:43:27 GMT
I don't know if you saw the video, but he was running away, and while running away reached back, while stilling running. The taser was just a hale mary (did not even aim) to stop the approaching cop so he could just get away, no intent to harm the cop, just stop him long enough to flee, just wanted to flee. Yes bad idea (as Arnold would say, predator) but not worth his life. The cop was not threatened. They could have let him go and picked him up later. By then he would have sobered up, becoming rational, seeking a lawyer.
Just my observation and comment from watching the video of him running. The cop might be biased or simply poorly trained. Could a court determine?
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Post by gus on Jun 16, 2020 4:04:12 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2020 12:32:32 GMT
If I may be so unassuming as to make a few suggestions for a national police standard or protocol.
1 - a police officer or any enforcement personnel shall not draw and/or fire a weapon unless they are directly threatened in a face-to-face confrontation or being fired upon from a distance. Such confrontation would consist of a facing suspect (or a suspect firing behind some form of shelter) brandishing any type of weapon or in the process of rushing towards the officer with the perceived intent of committing bodily harm.
2-once a suspect is neutralized, handcuffed, no further aggressive action shall be taken against the suspect. This includes bodily harm directly, or indirectly (vehicle abuse ETC.).
3 - in subduing a suspect only minimal force should be applied to render the suspect incapable of further aggression, or resistance i.e. handcuffs or Taser, choke holds and blunt force used only as an extreme last resort to subdue a suspect.
There could be other suggestions but without being a law enforcement specialist or without any direct intervention my in-depth knowledge is limited to what I see on television. It just seems to me that there is a lot of room for a national protocol with an emphasis at the local level for community input, discussion and support.
4 – Physical fitness, all police officers and other enforcement personnel exclusive of human resources, must be able to complete at least 40 push-ups, 100 sit ups, and run the mile in less than six minutes. Furthermore each enforcement individual should be able to at least press three quarters of their body weight for males and one half for females. There should be a height limit for males of no less than 5’8” and females 5’4”. A BMI index would not apply and would be supplanted by the above requirements.
5-A thorough psychological evaluation specific for the duties and rigors of an enforcement agent.
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Post by purr on Jun 16, 2020 12:33:08 GMT
Thanks for adding a thought provoking vid, Gus! This may be a matter of semantics, of choosing between big words (like: Reform) and small words (like 'change' and 'improve') applied to preferably ONE PROBLEM AT A TIME. Solving all of America's societal problems in one stroke (for instance by eliminating 'poverty' and allowing only for 'nice' policing) has to be considered unrealistic, the stuff of imagination, of activists feeding off public outrage over perceived police misconduct and armchair academians who believe poverty is the MAIN CAUSE of crime. (All of which might well be in error.) One problem requiring a step-by-step approach to improvement: Police Use of Force, why not revisit a national standard, put extra funding into training (the vids indicate police need mo' be'er GRAPPLING SKILLS to protect themselves and detainees from injury, at the same time elevating the threshold for switching to non lethal and lethal weapons). Chauvin's knee on mr. Floyd's neck/shoulder area pinning him to pavement for 8:46 minutes may be criminal (let a court decide) but it is certainly BAD FORM. (Chauvin applied a hold partially restricting respiration, then failed to respond to 'submission signals' by immediately releasing pressure, any Judo player can tell you why: prolonged holds may cause loss of consciousness and death.) I note that George Floyd seems to have died while thus pinned down and officer Chauvin must give account of his actions regarding a suspect who died while in his custody.
So I'm doubtful about high minded big-picture solutions. The poor will always be with us because we are born with varying predispositions to acquiring status and wealth. Every generation sees the birth of our future criminals. We all share the same 350,000 years of survival on brutal, beautiful planet Earth. In short: we are Mankind, apex predator (until Cov-2's bigger badder brother makes us go extinct), and on good days, some of the time WE CAN BE NICE...
purr
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Post by purr on Jun 16, 2020 15:24:04 GMT
If I may be so unassuming as to make a few suggestions for a national police standard or protocol. 1 - a police officer or any enforcement personnel shall not draw and/or fire a weapon unless they are directly threatened in a face-to-face confrontation or being fired upon from a distance. Such confrontation would consist of a facing suspect (or a suspect firing behind some form of shelter) brandishing any type of weapon or in the process of rushing towards the officer with the perceived intent of committing bodily harm. 2-once a suspect is neutralized, handcuffed, no further aggressive action shall be taken against the suspect. This includes bodily harm directly, or indirectly (vehicle abuse ETC.). 3 - in subduing a suspect only minimal force should be applied to render the suspect incapable of further aggression, or resistance i.e. handcuffs or Taser, choke holds and blunt force used only as an extreme last resort to subdue a suspect. There could be other suggestions but without being a law enforcement specialist or without any direct intervention my in-depth knowledge is limited to what I see on television. It just seems to me that there is a lot of room for a national protocol with an emphasis at the local level for community input, discussion and support. Gort, excellent proposals to my mind. But I'm about to play Devil's Advocate with them. So let me first share my own background here: I've been involved in the martial arts for 50+ years, focusing on civilian self defense throughout. Never worked as a police officer, yet most of my instructors were both teaching civilians 'self protection skills' and at the same served as either active duty police or military instructors. They were the warriors keeping my country safe, but I never saw first-hand that at times darker, terrifying part of their life and work. I just felt, still feel blessed to have had them in my life as teachers, friends and 2nd family. And at the training hall they gave their everything to train Citizens how to deal with threats to property and life, in a peaceful society (Netherlands), with all due respect to the law. I've been privileged to have taught self defense classes for women and kids for a number of years. What I know, or think I know about applied force comes from these experiences and relationships. Your 1st point:"1 - a police officer or any enforcement personnel shall not draw and/or fire a weapon unless they are directly threatened in a face-to-face confrontation or being fired upon from a distance. Such confrontation would consist of a facing suspect (or a suspect firing behind some form of shelter) brandishing any type of weapon or in the process of rushing towards the officer with the perceived intent of committing bodily harm."
My suggestion: Mr. Rayshard Brooks is an example of a suspect running away from the police while holding a non lethal weapon. As he ran he pointed the police taser down, then forward, then turning aiming it towards the officer pursuing him, then discharged the taser. For your consideration, isn't it likely that to the officers chasing him the mere fact of Brooks HOLDING A TASER, aggravated by his aggressive turning and aiming (suspect escape attempt plus taser and police return fire transpires in seconds, taser-firearm exchange in under 1 second!) would make him an immediate threat, risking incapacitation of an officer and Brooks taking away the officer's gun? Imho, if you allow a suspect to hold a gun, not promptly dropping it when instructed, you risk the life of police and innocent bystanders on scene. Not wishing to overstate the obvious, but guns kill very fast, that's why police will place their hand on holstered weapon, quickly draw and if still threatened fire at armed and dangerous suspects. Simply: Due to the potentially fraction-of-a-second interval between holding and firing a gun (or taser) I think there is a practical need to keep a much lower threshold than waiting for face-to-face confrontation. If a suspect holds a gun, police must prepare (=get ready) to use deadly force. Gort's 2nd point:"2-once a suspect is neutralized, handcuffed, no further aggressive action shall be taken against the suspect. This includes bodily harm directly, or indirectly (vehicle abuse ETC.)." One problem with "neutralized, handcuffed" as seen in the George Floyd footage (the best I've perused is the Washington Post visual timeline, which frustratingly has been 'age restricted' since I posted this thread, not conducive to the free flow of information) is that a big strong man, perhaps not in his right mind, perhaps 'under the influence' can then continue to resist police using a diversity of tactics including wedging themselves in a car door, kicking with both legs when inside, making apparently deceptive appeals for police consideration (while being placed in the cruiser by officer Kueng he claimed being 'claustrophobic' as well as repeating "I can't breathe" over and over in order to be taken out of the police vehicle). It is possible that for some minutes before Chauvin fatally overextended the knee restraint he was breathing well enough to play the crowd: this prompted officer Thao to wave/push onlookers back, to give the police room to work. Of course between 8:20 and 8:22pm Floyd's possible playing with arresting officers turned into real life or death, and horribly, Chauvin missed the signals and Floyd died under his knee. Simply: with drugs in play the folks US police are trying to arrest behave in crazy unexpected ways, Floyd wrestled with police to the point of death (blame yet to be determined), some suspects fought on AFTER BEING REPEATEDLY TASERED. Arresting suspects is not neat following protocol, it is messy and unpredictable. Officers need to be flexible and ready for anything until their detainee gets processed out of their care.
"3 - in subduing a suspect only minimal force should be applied to render the suspect incapable of further aggression, or resistance i.e. handcuffs or Taser, choke holds and blunt force used only as an extreme last resort to subdue a suspect."
100% agreed, Gort. That's why police should be trained to expert level in UNARMED MA-disciplines, and to a national standard in this area. I have a hunch that all Americans tend to over rely on firearms (its that 2nd amendment of yors), once they have access to this weapons system. What I get from my time in training halls (with all manner of professionals, gov, security guards, soldiers, police wandering in looking to hone their self protection skills) is that employers (including government ones) train and deploy their workforce on tight budgets. For this reason only too often police (know this only in Dutch context) end up incompletely trained. I am convinced that the key to safely arrest a suspect without having to resort to lethal force, even with folks fighting back, is to train in grappling skills to the point of distraction, fanaticism, even Mastery. Jiu Jitsu is best imo. Got to find a great Sensei, do this on your own time and make it your personal adventure and knowledge quest. Thanks for your input and helping me think things through.
This just popped into my simple mind. Anyone.. ANYONE.... if stopped or arrested by police, be polite and respectful, cooperate to a fault. Best to proactively avoid doing drugs or drinking too much alcohol while in the public realm or participating in traffic. THIS IS A LIFE SAVER...
annoyingly simple purr
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2020 7:37:20 GMT
I am far from being an expert or even knowledgeable about self-defense. However, my comments are just from watching the video and the behavior of Brooks and putting myself in that situation. I could (see) his train of thought (Brooks). He was being cooperative and the next thing he knows they want to put him in handcuffs simply because he fell asleep in his car (his perspective).
I think we are on the same page, except that I think even if Brooks had hit the officer with the Taser while running to get away, he would’ve kept on running. I think fleeing was his major thought process. The reason he probably grabbed the Taser in the first place was not to specifically target the cop but to prevent himself from being tased and thus captured. Also, even if he had tasered the cop,(while running) there were two them so the partner could easily have intervened, had Brooks stopped running and turned back on the tasered cop.
From the cop’s perspective he perceived the taking of the Taser as aggression and the subsequent fleeing as obstruction and Brooks firing of the Taser, a threat and the summation of all of this in his mind and training brought him to the conclusion that shooting the fleeing Brooks was justified. These behaviors by Brooks probably keyed instinctive behaviors in the cop, much like when a predatory animal sees prey suddenly flee instinctive behavior kicks in to pounce.
This is the core of the issue to me, that the cumulative training and perceptions of the cop would lead to the conclusion that the shooting was justified. And this suggests to me that alternative training and perspective may have prevented what I believe to be a rash decision on the part of the cop to shoot Brooks. A decision made almost on instinct.
As I said if they just let him go, they could have gotten him later. I just find it difficult to see how at one point he (Brooks) was cooperative probably thinking that they’d be satisfied with just getting him to remove the vehicle from the service lane. He is even friendly with the cops as are they but then the situation drastically changes and Brooks goes into instinctive fleeing mode.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2020 16:29:03 GMT
Police reform: Criminals are still going to be the same and the police will have less to deal with them.... can we reform the criminals as well?Rayshard Brooks was no angel.... just like Floyd.... both had criminal records. Georgia Prison (DOC) Arrest Records for Inmate RAYSHARD BROOKSwww.rapsheetz.com/georgia/doc-prisoner/BROOKS_RAYSHARD/1001370147Can you get imprisonment over there for being drunk at the wheel of a car? He probably ran because he was into some other criminal activity as well.... he has had a few terms in prison.... so as soon as the cops tried to put the handcuffs on him he became violent.... fighting the officers and stealing one of their tasers.... that could have had a deadly outcome for the police officers.... all he needed to do was incapacitate the officer that was chasing him and take his gun, shoot him and the other officer. Many officers are murdered... too many of them. That is the situation those officers were faced with.... I wouldn't want to be in their shoes. The Rayshard Brooks Case Is Not Another George Floyd Incidenthttps://thefederalist.com/2020/06/17/the-rayshard-brooks-case-is-not-another-george-floyd-incident/
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Post by purr on Jun 17, 2020 18:58:52 GMT
Police reform: Criminals are still going to be the same and the police will have less to deal with them.... can we reform the criminals as well?Rayshard Brooks was no angel.... just like Floyd.... both had criminal records. Georgia Prison (DOC) Arrest Records for Inmate RAYSHARD BROOKSwww.rapsheetz.com/georgia/doc-prisoner/BROOKS_RAYSHARD/1001370147Can you get imprisonment over there for being drunk at the wheel of a car? He probably ran because he was into some other criminal activity as well.... he has had a few terms in prison.... so as soon as the cops tried to put the handcuffs on him he became violent.... fighting the officers and stealing one of their tasers.... that could have had a deadly outcome for the police officers.... all he needed to do was incapacitate the officer that was chasing him and take his gun, shoot him and the other officer. Many officers are murdered... too many of them. That is the situation those officers were faced with.... I wouldn't want to be in their shoes. The Rayshard Brooks Case Is Not Another George Floyd Incidenthttps://thefederalist.com/2020/06/17/the-rayshard-brooks-case-is-not-another-george-floyd-incident/ Hi Luvey, off the top of my head (I did spend time carefully reviewing the body cam footage) mr. Brooks attracted the attention of Wendy employees when they saw (and verified, stepping out to attempt connecting with this driver) him parked in the middle of the road / driveway and apparently asleep or unconscious. They called in police. Arriving at the scene, the officers proceeded with a traffic stop (never mind Rayshard Brooks car was stationary with him at the wheel, kinda out of it). Knock on window, starting conversation, all very cordial. Except that Brooks at first could not be aroused from whatever state he was in, then when he seemed to come around, and on the officer's request he parked his car in a slot HE IMMEDIATELY LOST CONSCIOUSNESS AGAIN. Police woke him up with difficulty a second time, interaction still very friendly, and he did finally park his car as requested. Luvey, at this moment he was driving, and the responding officers had to determine if he had been drinking over the limit. Since he next FAILED his sobriety test the appropriate penalties would be pending. Certainly a fine. If a repeat DUI offender: worse, losing his licence, ultimately the possibility of jail time. Like you I'm not closely familiar with the legal details in the States. Not beyond imagination he had good reason to run. purr
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2020 21:23:52 GMT
Police reform: Criminals are still going to be the same and the police will have less to deal with them.... can we reform the criminals as well?Rayshard Brooks was no angel.... just like Floyd.... both had criminal records. Georgia Prison (DOC) Arrest Records for Inmate RAYSHARD BROOKSwww.rapsheetz.com/georgia/doc-prisoner/BROOKS_RAYSHARD/1001370147Can you get imprisonment over there for being drunk at the wheel of a car? He probably ran because he was into some other criminal activity as well.... he has had a few terms in prison.... so as soon as the cops tried to put the handcuffs on him he became violent.... fighting the officers and stealing one of their tasers.... that could have had a deadly outcome for the police officers.... all he needed to do was incapacitate the officer that was chasing him and take his gun, shoot him and the other officer. Many officers are murdered... too many of them. That is the situation those officers were faced with.... I wouldn't want to be in their shoes. The Rayshard Brooks Case Is Not Another George Floyd Incidenthttps://thefederalist.com/2020/06/17/the-rayshard-brooks-case-is-not-another-george-floyd-incident/ Hi Luvey, off the top of my head (I did spend time carefully reviewing the body cam footage) mr. Brooks attracted the attention of Wendy employees when they saw (and verified, stepping out to attempt connecting with this driver) him parked in the middle of the road / driveway and apparently asleep or unconscious. They called in police. Arriving at the scene, the officers proceeded with a traffic stop (never mind Rayshard Brooks car was stationary with him at the wheel, kinda out of it). Knock on window, starting conversation, all very cordial. Except that Brooks at first could not be aroused from whatever state he was in, then when he seemed to come around, and on the officer's request he parked his car in a slot HE IMMEDIATELY LOST CONSCIOUSNESS AGAIN. Police woke him up with difficulty a second time, interaction still very friendly, and he did finally park his car as requested. Luvey, at this moment he was driving, and the responding officers had to determine if he had been drinking over the limit. Since he next FAILED his sobriety test the appropriate penalties would be pending. Certainly a fine. If a repeat DUI offender: worse, losing his licence, ultimately the possibility of jail time. Like you I'm not closely familiar with the legal details in the States. Not beyond imagination he had good reason to run. purr
Hi purr.... I watched the body cam footage all the way through too, it all seemed friendly until they tried to cuff him.... I saw him running and turning and firing the stun gun at the pursuing officers..... Brooks had a history of violence.... like Floyd. I was at a birthday party many years ago and there was a guy at it smoking marijuana... and it must have been really strong stuff because he kept passing out... sounds like Brooks probably had some real strong weed.... It amazed me though how he was passing out yet was able to shift his car, act normal and fight off the police.... to me that means he is probably a long time user and drinker... his system is use to it and he can adjust to the situations he finds himself in. It was very foolish of him to do what he did.... it cost him his life.... and ruined the careers of two police officers. People lose their drivers license in Australia for DD.... every time they are caught driving under the influence the time they lose their license for multiplies.... 3 months, 6 months, 12 months. If they are driving drunk and cause a serious accident then they could get prison. A mechanic we know has lost their license for 4 years.... some people never learn. I think America's drink driving punishments are tougher.... whether they get prison or not IDK.... and that could vary from State to State....
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2020 5:11:21 GMT
It’s A Political Trap – Outgoing Atlanta DA Sets-Up Successor For Problems – Charges Police Officer With 11 Counts Including Felony Murder in Shooting Death of Rayshard Brooks…Fulton County, Georgia, District Attorney Paul Howard Jr., held a press conference earlier this afternoon to announce eleven charges against police officer Garrett Wolfe for the shooting death of Rayshard Brooks. The shooting took place at a local Atlanta Wendy’s.
In what appears to be a decision heavily influenced by local politics, DA Howard is charging officer Garrett Wolfe with felony murder, an unlawful killing with malice, forethought and specific intent. It looks like Howard is purposefully making a mess.
During his press remarks the district attorney stated Mr. Rayshard Brooks was “calm, cordial and really displayed a cooperative nature – he was almost jovial” after he was found “peacefully sleeping” in his car outside the Wendy’s Friday night and subjected to a sobriety test. According to the DA “for 41 minutes and 17 seconds, he followed their instructions, he answered the questions,” Howard said. “Mr. Brooks was never informed that he was under arrest for driving under the influence.”
There is something rather unusual about the extent of the way DA Paul Howard framed the encounter between the police and Rayshard Brooks, because CCTV video and body-cam footage do not support the district attorney’s statements. Obviously in a courtroom the defense is going to replay the DA statements while they run simultaneous footage of Mr. Rayshard Brooks resisting arrest, fighting with police and ultimately taking one of the officers’ tasers to use as a weapon. Read more @ theconservativetreehouse.com/2020/06/17/its-a-political-trap-outgoing-atlanta-da-sets-up-successor-for-problems-charges-police-officer-with-11-counts-including-felony-murder-in-shooting-death-of-rayshard-brooks/
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2020 8:25:29 GMT
Lawyer for Atlanta cop disputes prosecutor's account of Rayshard Brooks’ death
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2020 2:08:11 GMT
Reports of police walkouts in Atlanta after charges issued to officer jake G8 hours ago"Afraid to go back to prison" If he was that afraid to go back to prison don’t break the law millions do it every day.Something2ChewOn8 hours ago (edited)No one talking about him driving under the influence and all the lives he put in jeopardy driving in that condition, that’s strike 1, resisting arrest strike 2, assaulting an officer and taking his weapon strike 3 your out buddy. Color has nothing to do with it, your actions do. I’m tired of this race war trying to be created and so far quite successfully. Makes me sick and less hopeful for the future of America and our loved ones who will have to deal with the consequences of this miserable period in history.Tyler 7628 hours agoWhen a certain group of people is held to the same standard as everyone else, it’s considered racism. Wake up people.Amin Yapusi4 hours agoTell your dumb experts he was never going home because of his warrant.Heavenly Treasures6 hours ago Shame on you media for trying to cause more riots over a man who obviously disobeyed the law!!!!!!!!!!!!! Brendan Tovey12 hours ago I wonder if Brook's kids were "traumatised" by him beating them enough to get a 7yr jail term !!! Clint Tuberville6 hours agoThis was 100% justified. The DA , playing politics , should be fired.TheBoss8 hours agoI don't think the officer did anything wrong in this case. It's B.S. and he shouldn't be charged.Jo S7 hours agoWhy is a Police Officer being arrested for doing his job?Sona Sona4 hours agoLol... Interesting that when describing the man being arrested its "adrenaline takes over..." but in describing the officer, who has JUST been disarmed, is "well he didn't visually calculate the distance from point a to point b, and calculate the congruence between......" 🙄dementare6 hours agoIf the taser was "spent" or "out of rounds" then what the hell was that flash and pop that happened when he POINTED AND PULLED THE TRIGGER AT THE COP???Kevin Romero6 hours agoIt's good to know if I ever get pulled over for a DUI I'll just tell the cop "I'll exercise my right to walk home instead of getting arrested".HydrogeNuke21 hours agolol what cop lets you just "walk home" while doing a dui?Russ9 hours agoFACT: Fulton County District Attorney Paul Howard and his use of a nonprofit to funnel at least $140,000 in city of Atlanta funds to supplement his salary. On April 15, the Georgia Transparency and Campaign Finance Commission charged Howard with a dozen disclosure violations, most of them involving PPP.1997, is also facing allegations of sexual abuse and a state ethics complaint,Sarah Thomas9 hours agoWhat officer let's you walk home in a dui? That's a crockMocking Bird12 hours agoThat Cop did his job. Im sick of the real racism being carry out against White People.Slade The Original9 hours ago"he secures a taser"? lol. I think thats called theft.Bizz Erz15 hours agoSo he was scared and traumatised by his own criminal history. Right.Robert Gregg5 hours agoWhat's going on is they are illegally roasting this man, for defending his life. They are prosecuting him in the court of public opinion.Peter Disbury4 hours agoWhen the officer asked the suspect some questions in reference to driving his vehicle and then the guy denied and said he didn't drive his vehicle even though they have it on the chest cam it's clear and evident that the guy is not honest. If he is on parole and he is now intoxicated in public behind a wheel rather in a vehicle that is now a DUI which means he has now violated his parole and broken the law. The officer was just following procedures and if he has been instructed by his superiors to follow those guidelines he's just doing his job and the suspect resisted arrest. Kudos go to the officer for doing his job not to the guy who got shot he took it upon himself to commit a crime. It's sad to think that you cannot do your job and uphold the law without such absurdity.Black Police Officer Explains Why Tasers Are Lethal, Homicide, DWI and Body Cam - Atlanta Police Georgia Bureau of Investigation blindsided by charges against Atlanta officers in Rayshard Brooks casewww.theblaze.com/news/georgia-bureau-investigation-rayshard-brooksDirty Fulton County District Attorney Paul Howard Is Under Investigation for Funneling $140,000 in Atlanta Funds to Supplement His Salarythespectator.info/2020/06/18/dirty-fulton-county-district-attorney-paul-howard-is-under-investigation-for-funneling-140000-in-atlanta-funds-to-supplement-his-salary/
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