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Post by HAL on Jan 26, 2020 0:22:01 GMT
... I don't believe with nearly complete certainty we cant change the future or past...
I can believe with complete certainty, based on logic and, to me, common sense, that the past is gone and unalterable as well as inaccessible. And the future will unfold as it happens.
We do have the ability to change the future, in fact we do it every moment of every day.
HAL.
p.s. Being atheist, no gods required.
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Post by WingsofCrystal on Jan 26, 2020 0:26:38 GMT
Hello,
The only rule or guideline is be civil to one another.
Spiritual discussion is part of the UFO question.
Crystal
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Post by HAL on Jan 26, 2020 0:36:29 GMT
All seems civil enough to me Crystal. I was simply stating that spirituality has no place in my opinions. People can believe whatever they wish. As they demonstrate daily on this site. HAL.  |
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Post by WingsofCrystal on Jan 26, 2020 1:52:14 GMT
All seems civil enough to me Crystal. I was simply stating that spirituality has no place in my opinions. People can believe whatever they wish. As they demonstrate daily on this site. HAL.
That was in response to mryelm's mention of spiritual discussions being appropriate.
I've never seen anyone here get pissy about them.
Crystal |
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Post by mryelm on Jan 26, 2020 16:52:55 GMT
... I don't believe with nearly complete certainty we cant change the future or past... I can believe with complete certainty, based on logic and, to me, common sense, that the past is gone and unalterable as well as inaccessible. And the future will unfold as it happens. We do have the ability to change the future, in fact we do it every moment of every day. HAL. p.s. Being atheist, no gods required.
I respect your life view and feel that variety makes things exciting! (I think Mae West said that). Yes, it's easier and more logical to assume the future can be changed especially if one is not spiritual or religious. Some ay be surprised to learn that I believed the past present and future are all 'one' for lack of a better word. I was also an atheist when an extreme event (an NDE) piqued my interest in spirituality etc. Eventually I became convinced there is more to existence than what I had believed earlier and began searching for truth by various means of education. For sake of topic integrity and brevity and to ensure who is left reading this will not be sacrificed to the sleep God, I will not go into specifics of that search! I will just say I became spiritual first, then later religious (a Christian). I thought (sadly) I would give some science beliefs because I thought predestination was not compatible with science, I was wrong (yea!)
The block universe theory while not fully accepted has support of current physicists and scientific philosophers. Even better support for Block Theory are famous eminent physicists, logicians, mathematicians, and analytic philosophers . Kurt Gödel (my favorite physicist and logician), Albert Einstein, Weyl are three. Still many current physicists etc. have other theories, so the debate rolls on! Just Google Block Theory if anyone wants more information, also be aware there are different forms and variations of the theory. One that you may want to check out is called the 'Growing or Expanding Block Universe Theory, it suggests that the past present is unchangeable but the future may be different, meaning changeable etc.
Lastly, even though I may not agree, I understand what you mean by we change the future. Correct me if I am wrong, but I assume you are making that assessment in conjunction with the belief that the universe is not deterministic. Thank you for your reply.
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Post by mryelm on Jan 26, 2020 17:59:35 GMT
Hello,
The only rule or guideline is be civil to one another.
Spiritual discussion is part of the UFO question.
Crystal I believe too that spirituality goes with the UFO subject. Maybe even UFO based religion probably exists? Personally I don't know anyone or sect that worships UFOs or Alien's, but I would not be shocked if that were the case! That there is an nasty disagreement between many religious people and the 'scientific establishment' that was getting ever worse since the scope monkey trial in 1925. Btw, the conservatives/religious folk won, but personally I am not proud of the fact due to issues that will be discussed in a future thread, still it was a rare victory.
There is something both we religious people and those who aren't religious should consider. We that believe UFO's and their drivers are real and those of us that are religious have more in common than otherwise! Much more! Not long ago UFO believers were seen as near Bellevue escapees. The same goes for religious folk like the offshoots of the Pentecostals (no offence to anyone meant). Only very recently have those views moderated. What I am attempting to communicate is that we that believe UFO's are real and the religious people NEED each other, especially some of our beliefs are not exactly mainstream. So I say Peace be with you(all)* and most of all we stand united!...And.... 'dif-tor heh smusma' aka Live long and prosper! **….And? anyone?
* … John 20:19
**… Star Trek ; Episode 1 Season 2 '' Amok Time ''
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Post by thelmadonna on Jan 26, 2020 18:11:18 GMT
www.rael.org/homeThe Message For centuries, scholars have been debating the two main possibilities for the origin and meaning of life. Some aspire to a higher philosophical dimension, which they can't find in the theory of evolution, while others dismiss as irrational any reference to an almighty god. But what if another theory, one both rational and with philosophical depth, were to be available? This is what the “Message” proposes: Thousands of years ago, scientists from another planet came to Earth and created all forms of life, including human beings, whom they created in their own image. References to these scientists and their work can be found in the ancient texts of many cultures. Due to their highly advanced technology, they were considered as gods by our primitive ancestors and often referred to as 'Elohim' which in ancient Hebrew meant 'Those who came from the sky'. Despite being a plural word, Elohim was mistranslated over time to the singular 'God' reference that appears in modern-day Bibles. Nevertheless, these people who came from the sky (the Elohim) educated humanity through the ages with the help of various messengers (also called prophets) with whom they had made contact. Each messenger was given a message suitable for the level of understanding prevailing at the time, with the primary purpose of instilling basic principles of non-violence and respect. Once humanity reached a sufficient level of scientific understanding, the Elohim decided to make themselves more visible in UFO sightings and to conceive their final message. Rael was given two missions: spreading that last message on Earth and preparing an embassy to welcome the return of our creators. The atheist 'Intelligent Design Theory' offers a rational solution to the age-old debate between God-believers and evolutionists. It’s compatible not only with today's scientific discoveries but also with the ancient historical accounts of all cultures. But don't take our word for it. Read Intelligent Design - Message from the Designers for yourself and do your own research. Rael: Messenger of the Elohim Rael: Messenger of the ElohimAt the age of 27, on the morning of December 13, 1973, while he was still leading his successful racing-car magazine, RAEL had a dramatic encounter with a human being from another planet, at a volcano park in the center of France, known as "Puy de Lassolas". This extra-terrestrial gave him a new detailed explanation of our origins and information on how to organize our future, as recorded in the book: Intelligent Design. After six consecutive meetings in the same location, Rael accepted the mission given to him, to inform humanity of this revolutionary message and to prepare the population to welcome their Creators, the Elohim, without any mysticism or fear, but as conscious and grateful human beings. After a few months considering this huge task, Rael almost developed a stomach ulcer before finally deciding to give up his much loved career as a sports-car journalist and devote himself fully to the task assigned to him by Yahweh - the extra-terrestrial whom he met. Within the year following the encounter, he managed to print the book reporting about the event and appeared on two of the main TV and Radio shows in France, announcing a public conference. This first public conference held in Paris on September 19, 1974 attracted more than 2000 people. Shortly after, he founded the association MADECH - a group of people interested in helping him in his huge task- that would later become the Raelian Movement. By the end of the year 1974, the association counted 170 members. They are now more than 85,000 members in 107 countries. On October 7th, 1975, he had a second encounter and was given additional information recorded on his second book, also part of Intelligent Design. Since that time, Rael has been touring the World, giving conferences and seminars on every continent, gathering those who share the desire to welcome our Creators. He also authored several other books like Sensual Meditation which is a central part of his teachings, "Geniocracy" advocating for a more intelligent management of the planet and "Yes To Human Cloning" explaining the possibility of becoming eternal and the beautiful future one can expect thanks to Science. Over the years, Rael has inspired several public actions from the promotion of the use of condoms in schools to the promotion of masturbation; from worldwide campaigns in support of minorities with the slogan "to tolerate differences is not enough, one should love differences" to the disturbing request to have all Religious books censured where they don't respect Human Rights; from the support of Human Cloning through the founding of Clonaid, to the promotion of GMO as the only chance for all human beings on Earth to have food; from the creation of Clitoraid, an association to help women who have been circumcised to have their clitoris repaired so that they can experience pleasure again to the call for the gathering of all African traditional chiefs to create the United States of Africa. Rael has been a guest on most of the major TV programs worldwide like 60 minutes, CNN, FOX, and BBC news programs, as well as programs like Breakfast with Frost and Entertainment Tonight, to name a few. He has been invited to explain his vision of science to the American Congress and has been the guests of many leaders of this world, with the President Denis Sassou N'Guesso of Congo being the first to welcome him officially in 2000. Many artists acknowledged him as well like the French author Michel Houellebecq and Hugh Hefner. In every culture on Earth, a messenger is expected, whether it is the Maitreya of the Buddhists, the Messiah of the Jews, the Paraclet of the Christians, or any other name that has been given by the many tribes around the world. This expected messenger, like all the previous ones, isn't supposed to please everyone, but to state what our Creators are expecting from us. This is what RAEL has been doing for more than 40 years now, traveling relentlessly while making the vow not to own anything, but to give everything towards welcoming our Creators in the Embassy they requested be built before 2035.
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Post by mryelm on Jan 26, 2020 19:22:38 GMT
Crystal, I would like to say one more thing about this. I am like most newbies who are a little apprehensive about accidently offending my new friends. That's why I asked for your input. Most of us know to an general extent what is tasteful etc. The tricky thing is the fine tuning! Anyway, your input will help me write future stuff without fear of stepping on too many toes. Still, accidentally mashed toes happen. At least now I am a little better at fine tuning.
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Post by mryelm on Jan 26, 2020 20:47:34 GMT
www.rael.org/homeThe Message For centuries, scholars have been debating the two main possibilities for the origin and meaning of life. Some aspire to a higher philosophical dimension, which they can't find in the theory of evolution, while others dismiss as irrational any reference to an almighty god. But what if another theory, one both rational and with philosophical depth, were to be available? This is what the “Message” proposes: Thousands of years ago, scientists from another planet came to Earth and created all forms of life, including human beings, whom they created in their own image. References to these scientists and their work can be found in the ancient texts of many cultures. Due to their highly advanced technology, they were considered as gods by our primitive ancestors and often referred to as 'Elohim' which in ancient Hebrew meant 'Those who came from the sky'. Despite being a plural word, Elohim was mistranslated over time to the singular 'God' reference that appears in modern-day Bibles. Nevertheless, these people who came from the sky (the Elohim) educated humanity through the ages with the help of various messengers (also called prophets) with whom they had made contact. Each messenger was given a message suitable for the level of understanding prevailing at the time, with the primary purpose of instilling basic principles of non-violence and respect. Once humanity reached a sufficient level of scientific understanding, the Elohim decided to make themselves more visible in UFO sightings and to conceive their final message. Rael was given two missions: spreading that last message on Earth and preparing an embassy to welcome the return of our creators. The atheist 'Intelligent Design Theory' offers a rational solution to the age-old debate between God-believers and evolutionists. It’s compatible not only with today's scientific discoveries but also with the ancient historical accounts of all cultures. But don't take our word for it. Read Intelligent Design - Message from the Designers for yourself and do your own research. Rael: Messenger of the Elohim Rael: Messenger of the ElohimAt the age of 27, on the morning of December 13, 1973, while he was still leading his successful racing-car magazine, RAEL had a dramatic encounter with a human being from another planet, at a volcano park in the center of France, known as "Puy de Lassolas". This extra-terrestrial gave him a new detailed explanation of our origins and information on how to organize our future, as recorded in the book: Intelligent Design. After six consecutive meetings in the same location, Rael accepted the mission given to him, to inform humanity of this revolutionary message and to prepare the population to welcome their Creators, the Elohim, without any mysticism or fear, but as conscious and grateful human beings. After a few months considering this huge task, Rael almost developed a stomach ulcer before finally deciding to give up his much loved career as a sports-car journalist and devote himself fully to the task assigned to him by Yahweh - the extra-terrestrial whom he met. Within the year following the encounter, he managed to print the book reporting about the event and appeared on two of the main TV and Radio shows in France, announcing a public conference. This first public conference held in Paris on September 19, 1974 attracted more than 2000 people. Shortly after, he founded the association MADECH - a group of people interested in helping him in his huge task- that would later become the Raelian Movement. By the end of the year 1974, the association counted 170 members. They are now more than 85,000 members in 107 countries. On October 7th, 1975, he had a second encounter and was given additional information recorded on his second book, also part of Intelligent Design. Since that time, Rael has been touring the World, giving conferences and seminars on every continent, gathering those who share the desire to welcome our Creators. He also authored several other books like Sensual Meditation which is a central part of his teachings, "Geniocracy" advocating for a more intelligent management of the planet and "Yes To Human Cloning" explaining the possibility of becoming eternal and the beautiful future one can expect thanks to Science. Over the years, Rael has inspired several public actions from the promotion of the use of condoms in schools to the promotion of masturbation; from worldwide campaigns in support of minorities with the slogan "to tolerate differences is not enough, one should love differences" to the disturbing request to have all Religious books censured where they don't respect Human Rights; from the support of Human Cloning through the founding of Clonaid, to the promotion of GMO as the only chance for all human beings on Earth to have food; from the creation of Clitoraid, an association to help women who have been circumcised to have their clitoris repaired so that they can experience pleasure again to the call for the gathering of all African traditional chiefs to create the United States of Africa. Rael has been a guest on most of the major TV programs worldwide like 60 minutes, CNN, FOX, and BBC news programs, as well as programs like Breakfast with Frost and Entertainment Tonight, to name a few. He has been invited to explain his vision of science to the American Congress and has been the guests of many leaders of this world, with the President Denis Sassou N'Guesso of Congo being the first to welcome him officially in 2000. Many artists acknowledged him as well like the French author Michel Houellebecq and Hugh Hefner. In every culture on Earth, a messenger is expected, whether it is the Maitreya of the Buddhists, the Messiah of the Jews, the Paraclet of the Christians, or any other name that has been given by the many tribes around the world. This expected messenger, like all the previous ones, isn't supposed to please everyone, but to state what our Creators are expecting from us. This is what RAEL has been doing for more than 40 years now, traveling relentlessly while making the vow not to own anything, but to give everything towards welcoming our Creators in the Embassy they requested be built before 2035. |
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Post by HAL on Jan 26, 2020 21:33:43 GMT
Mryelm,
I understand that the universe is essentially unknowable.
We have theories about how it started. But no way of proving them correct.
Current thinking calls for the 'heat death' of the universe. And physics would appear to it just getting colder and finishing up a very big place full of dead things. Heat only goes one way.
We change the future with every little thing we do. Admittedly on a very small scale. But it all adds up.
Nothing we do will change the past.
But the universe will have a future with or without us. And we can only effect our tiny part of it.
HAL.
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Post by mryelm on Jan 26, 2020 22:21:31 GMT
PARTIAL QUOTE > <<<<
If you or your material is referencing biblical text in the mention of 'old' Hebrew, please clarify which dialect is being referred to? Also please provide a website or other source for the (above) claims, I am especially interested in the interpretation of Elohim meaning 'Those who came from the sky'. I am aware that Elohim mentioned in the bible has many definitions and interpretations with both prefix and suffix 'words' depending on the book some on the period etc. but none match the material that was posted. If you are not referencing biblical material please list those sources as well? Thanks. |
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Post by mryelm on Jan 26, 2020 23:05:17 GMT
PARTIAL QUOTE>>>>>
Hey Hal! I attempted to use the quote function but somehow messed that up so I just cut and pasted because I am late for an appt....
Yes, I agree HAL, but its still fun to do thought experiments as Einstein called them. You are on a UFO forum so we think alike in the areas that count.As far as knowledge of the universe goes a lot of processes that were once only theory and before that were hypothesis have been solved and proven true. For example a favorite is the theory of time dilatation aka time travel. As you are most likely aware that theory was proven true by using atomic clocks. Maybe if our scientists and philosophers dream enough they will solve a lot of small problems then hopefully the large ones will fall into place! To be honest I am no great fan of the ball and chain of scientific methodology. The club is too exclusive and grant money, power and position is so tempting that it can threating the truth. Kurt Gödel got it right, my signature is a quote of his. In midlife mental disease robb3ed him of his destiny, but that's another thread. Anyway, lastly, isn't it remarkable what we have learned what we have despite our very human shortcomings? I may complain about how science is dropping the ball but really I am in awe of our accomplishments. |
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Post by thelmadonna on Jan 27, 2020 8:10:00 GMT
I attempted to use the quote function but somehow messed that up,
Happened to me yesterday/ I call it daisy, days it works days it don't.
The rael..org website I put up was in response to you.
I believe too that spirituality goes with the UFO subject. Maybe even UFO based religion probably exists? Personally I don't know anyone or sect that worships UFOs or Alien's, but I would not be shocked if that were the case!
I suggest you contact Rael and ask him what form of Yahweh he meant.
Religion is the most divisive creed that man has ever created. I need not go on with that one,, just take a look at what it has done over millennia
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Post by HAL on Jan 27, 2020 20:27:40 GMT
..I believe too that spirituality goes with the UFO subject. Maybe even UFO based religion probably exists? Personally I don't know anyone or sect that worships UFOs or Alien's, but I would not be shocked if that were the case!...
George Adamski ?
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Post by nyx on Feb 3, 2020 20:48:17 GMT
Ivan T. Anderson, British WWII intelligence, claimed he had enough evidence to prove UFOs came from civilizations in the oceans being the world is three fourths water.
After his death his library and notes vanished.
There could be multiple things going on, but the UFO situation has been going on for a long time.
How do you explain that a lot of countries have spent a lot of time and money to keep years of reports and investigations only lately to be released on line?
How do explain that J Edgar Hoover was so angry that the military would not share their UFO information with the FBI.
How do explain all the eye witness accounts from pilots and police seeing UFOs like Capt.Ray Bowyer and the Guernsey UFO?
How do you explain Mercury Astronaut Gordon Cooper going to the UN wanting the UN to explain his UFO sightings.
I could go on and on.
There is a phenomenon going on!
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