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Post by HAL on Feb 14, 2020 19:15:59 GMT
Hey Purr,
Are the floods in Holland effecting you ?
HAL
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Post by purr on Feb 14, 2020 19:30:52 GMT
Hey Purr, Are the floods in Holland effecting you ? HAL For several days now my town lies approximately 2 m. below river levels  , so it's a little bit exciting, happily the dikes are holding. purr |
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Post by purr on Feb 14, 2020 20:03:01 GMT
Mryelm, Indeed many claim to have seen God. But many also, with equal fervor, claim to be reincarnations of every famous person from Jesus to Hitler. Some qualify this by saying things like 'I see God in everything around me' Which is really a non answer. They are seeing the product of millenia of evolution. Odd, perhaps, that lots of people who claim to see God do so while in some kind of trance or under chemical influence. Same people occasionally see things crawling out of the walls; strange thing, the mind. Purr, .. but on a reading of the actual religious-historical record .. But this kind of thing goes back so far there is no way anything back in the beginning can be verified. Things like the Patriarchs living for hundreds of years. If this were factually true, why did they suddenly stop living so long ? Seems more like a device to 'pad-out' the time scale. If you want a modern example of the risks in following these kind of things, take the Rendlesham Forest incident. I, like many here, was around at the time it happened. And read the reports at the time. I even have one of the first copies of the Halt Tape. Now the story is blown completely out of proportion and is getting further beyond the realm with every iteration. Never forget that organised religion is a control system. Absolutely nothing wrong with people believing in any kind of deity they wish. But when it becomes mandatory to follow that teaching 'or else' then religion's true nature becomes apparent. If there is a God (singular) then it isn't doing a very good job of keeping it's adherents on the straight and narrow. HAL. Hi HAL, I agree with you on the importance of facts and verification, however for me the joy of studying history is the potential to infer what is as yet hidden in our past by extending beyond what is scientific using things like intuition, contemplation and imagination. Another great way to make history come alive is by re-enacting stories as realistically as possible, and reconstructing things like the Tabernacle or Noah's Ark. Has been done, though not by me personally  . Using my martial arts background I could compare some modern fighting techniques and tactics with descriptions of the warfare practiced around 1000 BCE as recorded in the Old Testament. To my surprise the methods contained in the scriptures (King James Authorized Version) proved almost entirely the same as the ones taught to today's aspiring MA-students by a qualified Sensei! To me this indicates the Biblical author was describing real experience with preparing for and waging war, not just making things up. There's no end to such examples. purr |
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Post by ZETAR on Feb 14, 2020 21:28:04 GMT
Purr, ..I hope you are not missing the point I'm attempting to make: Great Faiths are remembered to have begun with encounters with non-human visitors, making the Encounter the starting point for centuries of Theology... No, I'm not missing your point. But It isn't the same point I refer to. All faith rely upon a God who is unknowable. That is why it is called faith. No one, and I do mean no one at all, has ever actually seen this God. They only have stories passed along by people have been re-hashing the same stuff for centuries. HAL, my dear Atheist brother (responding as Christian sister) the point you so eloquently address I did not make! I am not calling on your or anyone's faith, but on a reading of the actual religious-historical record to invite a comparison of the modern experience of UFOs and Aliens with the earliest memories recorded of the Saints and Prophets meeting God, which we now know led to the emergence of the Great Faiths of Christianity and Judaism (plus arguably followed by Islam and the Holy Roman Empire and in the past five centuries by Protestantism dividing up in innumerable denominations and alternative doctrines). Again, the point I was making: religious memory (as recorded in both the Jewish Torah and Christian New Testament) seems to tell us everything began with an encounter of a human person with a initially strange and 'wondrous' Other, which led to a kind of alliance/treaty that bound together the fates of a tribe and their God for generations, centuries even lasting thousands of years. Modern UFOlogy of course has its 'Encounters' and rumored 'Treaties' too, maybe a bit early to say where these will lead eventually.
To answer to your point postulating God is unknowable: guys (as well as some gals like one lady named Ruth and another Mary Magdalene) like Abram, Moses, Samuel, David, Elijah, Elisa, John the Baptist (who was according to Xian tradition the last of the Hebrew prophets) and Jesus Christ expressed a sense of knowing God 'personally'. Jesus for instance even used the familial Father and Daddy in prayer.
"Rehashing the same stuff for centuries" equals to my way of thinking the Recording, Preservation and Study of History. (And mankind in the past has been particularly magical, spiritual and yes religious, so we have to study that aspect of our psychological make up and evolution too imo.) purr
Close Encounters of the Fifth Kind (CE-V) – Involves direct communication between observers and the occupants of a UFO. This is a rarely reported occurrence.
worldufos.com/2014/08/hynek-classification-system/ SHALOM...Z |
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Post by WingsofCrystal on Feb 14, 2020 22:49:47 GMT
Hey Purr, Are the floods in Holland effecting you ? HAL For several days now my town lies approximately 2 m. below river levels , so it's a little bit exciting, happily the dikes are holding. purr
Crystal |
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Post by purr on Feb 16, 2020 0:08:52 GMT
For several days now my town lies approximately 2 m. below river levels , so it's a little bit exciting, happily the dikes are holding. purr
CrystalThank you, Crystal! Mind you, being under water and visibly so (all we have to do is go to our town limits, up a river dike and see on one side the water virtually up to ones feet, and on the other our neighborhoods flatly stretching out down 'Nether'  literally meters lower than the mighty waters of our life giving and occasionally taking rivers) is at the heart of Dutch identity. High water levels, river and sea, enough to keep our mayor and emergency services leadership on 24 hour alert are a recurring, near yearly feature of life in many parts of the Netherlands! To the Dutch this has become almost routine... or at least 'normal'. After your kind post I suddenly felt myself stepping out of Dutch water adaptive complacency and realized the danger we are all in, and said a little prayer for family/collective safety myself! purr
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Post by purr on Feb 16, 2020 0:53:00 GMT
Swamp, before you think I've gone completely off reservation: I lean towards saying the majority of Visitors hail from the cosmos / alternate realities and thus imo are truly alien, and not 'us'! purr Still thinking about Swamprat's topic question, I wish to refine the above a little more. By now I do come down on opining the curious Visitors causing the UFO phenomenon are alien in origin, one that is alternative to Human Evolution. But the religious angle, the idea that we have engaged with some of these factions in the role of tribal Gods in ancient times, could mean they have become less alien and more familiar, even closer than we realize. Aliens who at some point in the human timeline changed the direction of our belief systems and our religions/cultures/civilization, even may have intervened in human evolution itself, have over time become Ancestors. They are not quite Us, but they are closely involved with the human experience and part of our minds. purr
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Post by HAL on Feb 16, 2020 20:06:34 GMT
Purr,
Remember 1952.
If the water comes, don't go into your house's upper rooms, get out altogether.
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Post by purr on Feb 18, 2020 14:21:24 GMT
Purr, Remember 1952. If the water comes, don't go into your house's upper rooms, get out altogether. Thank you from the heart for your well meant advice, HAL. There is a slight problem with that however, I live in Eastern Netherlands farmland, simply put, it is like living and working in a SUB MARINE meadow the size of Birmingham City, if there is serious flooding one may travel, head out best possible speed but your ride will very likely be overtaken by the water. Unless there's an accurate 24 hour warning of a dike breach (and if that happens the best route is going for high ground in 'Nachbar'=next-door neighbor Germany like bats from hell!). Where I live warning time near several dikes may be down to minutes, marked by sirens, so the attic/roof (with food/drink supply up there at the ready) of a sturdy family home it will (hopefully never!) be for us. I've been seeing some alarming images of UK flooding on the news. How are you doing yourself across the channel/North Sea? I seem to notice you are equally skeptical of the existence of a Higher Being/God as to models postulating the Ancients may have adopted non-human Visitors (from the Cosmos or another reality, say 'parts unknown') as their tribal Deity. Do you realize the latter possibility does not in itself conflict with an Atheist worldview? Also, you seem fair and open minded to the idea that the UFO phenomenon is something (or as I prefer: sumtin ) real. Doesn't it make sense to you that folks in the past, looking at the world with less factual information, but plenty of superstitions, magical and religious beliefs may well have responded to a real UFO phenomenon by framing it within their contemporary belief system?
purr
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Post by bonehead on Feb 18, 2020 17:56:02 GMT
Hello All,
Sorry, I have not been following this thread closely. But I did find an article that seems to be cogent to your discussions.....
Mryelm said: "Is God of the Bible an alien? My personal opinion is there is no empirical evidence to support that statement."
To this i say, "au contrare mon frère"!
My experience has been that as time goes on, the "scientific proofs" for many religious and cultural traditions (forget the word "Myths" since that has become a negative, pejorative term) is being borne out by science. That is because I believe that these traditions were, at one time, what we call "history". People do not make up wild stories about their history. History is merely the story of a culture's experiences. That modern scientistic types find these stories "unbelievable" is irrelevant as far as I am concerned. I believe they are, in many cases, wrong about that.
Example given from the Bible, Genesis Chapter 6:
"1 When human beings began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them, 2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of humans were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose..... 4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of humans and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown...."
Note the word "Nephilim". It is a plural term. How does this fit with the monotheistic concept of the one God as creator of all? It does not. I think many problems with the bible can be laid at the door of the conflating assertion that "Gods" (plural) and God (singular) are the same. If one separates the "Nephilim" and "Elohim" from the presumed monotheistic God, then the confusion and contradiction disappears. So, here is your scientific evidence of the historic attentions of the Nephilim:
mysteriousuniverse.org/2020/02/ghost-dna-shows-human-ancestors-interbred-with-mysterious-unknown-hominins/
What does that all mean? What is that mystery DNA and where did it come from? Why does the science not show what eventually became of the sources of that mystery DNA? Perhaps, because the "Gods" (Nephilim, Elohim) left the building, so to speak. They left. And we are only left with traces of their DNA, still present on earth, from times long passed.
In addition, many cultural traditions from around the globe speak of times when "Gods" or "the Gods" walked the earth. These stories are nearly universal. If they are mere myths or fantasies, then why are they so all pervasive? To be honest, I think the doubters have a lot further to prove their biased assumptions than those who think of the myths as historical.
Here is another mystery that science has been fervent to declare "fake" while offering nothing at all to explain their negative position. It is an archaeological fact that ancient elongated skulls are found all over the planet and on several different continents. Many of these skulls are the result of "cradle boarding". That is, the skulls are deliberately distorted while the child is a baby. What science has never explained is: why? Why did peoples around the world distort their heads in this manner? In many cases, it is clear that the people with these distorted craniums were high caste members of their societies. Why?
Science has no explanation. But the evidence does offer us an explanation. However, it is not one that science is willing to admit. In addition to the deliberately distorted skulls, there have been a small minority of these elongated skulls that show no evidence of deliberate distortion. They all show anomalies from normal human skulls such as missing sutures on the skull. Here, read for yourself:
www.sunnyskyz.com/positive-good-news.php?newsid=545/DNA-Analysis-Of-Paracas-Elongated-Skulls-Released-The-Results-Prove-They-Were-Not-Human#.UvuB4qvRSy0.email
I would suggest that the myths of the "Gods" living on earth are borne out by this scientific evidence. There is archaeological evidence of beings that differ from us and yet lived among us. Science suggests that all of these skulls are the result of deliberate distortion. But they have never explained WHY people would do this. Why subject your child to such an ordeal? What was the point? Well, unless it was an attempt to increase their status by taking on the appearance of the "Gods"?
Wouldn't that impart a kind if instant social status? It is a status that anybody can see, even from distance, when looking at these folks. I can see how THAT would be a powerful motivation. Science offers no explanation at all....
Just for the record, I am an agnostic. I do not buy into the Judeo/Christian idea of "God" being some guy that rules in heaven and loves people and smites them in equal measure. But I do believe that there is an ultimate force or power in the universe that we humans, in our ignorant state, cannot know in any complete way. Atheism is not a proper belief system at all. Atheism is a reactionary belief that fully depends on the concept of God for its validity. As I like to say, Atheism is A theism. How can you define God and then say you don't believe in your contrived subject? Sorry, that does not work, in my opinion. To each their own.
I feel that there are a lot of truths to be gleaned from cultural myths. Letting science define these things is as much a fools errand as saying you don't believe in an a-priori contrived subject. Why bother? That does not illuminate anything but a convoluted thought process......
Skepticism is a good thing. It keeps you from simply accepting beliefs without first examining them. Too bad science and culture do not readily apply real skepticism, instead choosing to simply adopt beliefs without analysis or introspection. The above is a result of my questioning science and religion. And I think my story is a lot more interesting than the widely accepted status-quo beliefs. It fits the evidence better too......
Just saying.....
Bonehead
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Post by ZETAR on Feb 18, 2020 18:11:51 GMT
PURR,
OUSTANDING INSIGHT!
HAL I'M SURE CONSIDERS...AND AT THE MINIMUM SHOULD BE QUESTIONING "I seem to notice you are equally skeptical of the existence of a Higher Being/God as to models postulating the Ancients may have adopted non-human Visitors (from the Cosmos or another reality, say 'parts unknown') as their tribal Deity." AS SYNTAX OF DESCRIBING 'GOD' TO 'MODERN HAL' COMPARED TO WHAT 'ANCIENTS' MAY HAVE EMBRACED WOULD BE (IMHO) BASED ON ENTIRELY DIFFERENT EVIDENCE/FACTS...IF I'M NOT MISTAKEN...I'D SAY YOU WERE IN 'STIR MODE'  HAVING SAID THE ABOVE AND QUESTIONING AT WHAT POINT WOULD AN ATHEIST "realize the latter possibility does not in itself conflict with an Atheist worldview?" AND TO THAT "Atheist worldview". ..WHAT EVIDENCE WOULD IT TAKE TO MODIFY SUCH VIEWPOINT?
A SUMERIAN STARGATE?
STAY SAFE TO THE BOTH OF YOU...I KNOW THE WEATHER HAS BEEN CHALLENGING!
SHALOM...Z
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Post by HAL on Feb 18, 2020 19:44:14 GMT
This is a bit spread out. But First Purr,
I suppose, and I'm not being facetious here, one option would be to build a large raft. You could use it as a general storage platform in normal times, But if the worst happened you could throw off the stuff stored on it (or better still, have some survival supplies permanently kept on it) then the raft will rise with the flood and you will be safe. Tie the raft to an anchor point with a strong (and long) rope and just sit out the flood. I do know that there is a form off housing in Holland that can rise and fall with the rise in water level. Basically the whole thing slides between four pillars. Pretty good idea.
I live on the side of a hill that only has a couple of foot of topsoil before you hit rock. Any water runs away easily. But it does cause flood in in the valley bottom. And this is becoming a regular problem.
There doesn't appear to be an easy answer to this as there are two river valleys (Airedale and Worth Vally) that converge where the town is built. And there is only one way out for the water; down the River Aire. And that is confined between two hills.
HAL.
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Post by HAL on Feb 18, 2020 19:55:15 GMT
ZETAR,
No, not in stir mode.
I suppose it is mostly a matter of semantics.
I have never denied that there may be a very powerful 'being' (almost said Deity then) that I way more capable than we can imagine. But I do not equate this being to the Biblical idea of some creator that existed before the Universe and is responsible for the creation of everything.
The best analogue I can think of is to be found in Gregg Bear's story 'Eon'. Where the characters in the plot return body of a being that is far beyond themselves (us) to it's 'people'. But these people also refer to a higher being that they call 'The Final Mind' But they don't appear to assume that the Final Mind is an omnipotent God. More just a very high intelligence that itself may answer to something higher.
So, Ancient Astronauts do not conflict with my atheist view point. If they existed they would be simply another set of beings from some other place.
The question with them is 'why only leave a few strange rock artifacts' ? Where is all the good stuff.
HAL.
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Post by mryelm on Feb 18, 2020 19:58:20 GMT
I agree with you purr. How could people of those times describe a UFO in term other than comparing them contemporary things? This is a word for word report of a encounter of the third kind (I think it would be classified as that)Ryan Graves, an F/A-18 Super Hornet pilot.... “The strange objects, one of them like a spinning top moving against the wind, appeared almost daily from the summer of 2014 to March 2015, high in the skies over the East Coast. Navy pilots reported to their superiors that the objects had no visible engine or infrared exhaust plumes, but that they could reach 30,000 feet and hypersonic speeds.
Take out words that describe things that didn't exist hundreds or thousands of years ago and its easy to visualize why UFOs etc. were described in every day terms. My favorite biblical UFO reference was Ezekiel's first hand description of what seems like a UFO visit. He said it looked like a wheeled chariot come toward him descending from the sky. A partial quote; “I looked and saw a whirlwind coming from the north, a great cloud with fire flashing back and forth and brilliant light all around it. In the center of the fire was a glow like amber, and within it was the form of four living creatures. And this was their appearance: They had a human form…” The description goes on to describe the wheel within the wheel etc. Ezekiel either had some super potent LSD, mushrooms or actually witnessed a UFO. I feel comfortable as a Christian making these claims because when seeking truth we must strip all emotional baggage we carry to produce something resembling truth, if 100% 'truth' actually exists in a material universe. If truth does exist, it's exceedingly rare! Emotion detracts and even blinds me from what is really true, but man is it hard to eliminate even if only for a short time! You mentioned evolution and alien's, are you talking about ET changing our DNA from a common ancestor to human? I tend to think that is true even if it was God or ET or both being one and the same. Did I say that right?
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Post by HAL on Feb 18, 2020 20:03:34 GMT
Purr, ..Also, you seem fair and open minded to the idea that the UFO phenomenon is something (or as I prefer: sumtin ) real.. Yes, the ufo phenomena is real. I use my own experience base that on. And I am sticking closely to the definition of 'ufo' when I say that. It is more than likely, if the ufo as we know it has been around for a very long time, that early civilisations would tie it to their beliefs. What else could they tie it to ? They had no planes or rockets to misidentify. The churches (any creed) were all powerful and the folks were very superstitious. I draw the line on people who immediately (even today) say 'it's visiting Gods, Angels etc. Why would any God need a nuts and bolts ufo ? or even one of the more nebulous kind. HAL. |
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, so it's a little bit exciting, happily the dikes are holding.
. Using my martial arts background I could compare some modern fighting techniques and tactics with descriptions of the warfare practiced around 1000 BCE as recorded in the Old Testament. To my surprise the methods contained in the scriptures (King James Authorized Version) proved almost entirely the same as the ones taught to today's aspiring MA-students by a qualified Sensei! To me this indicates the Biblical author was describing real experience with preparing for and waging war, not just making things up. There's no end to such examples.
literally meters lower than the mighty waters of our life giving and occasionally taking rivers) is at the heart of Dutch identity. High water levels, river and sea, enough to keep our mayor and emergency services leadership on 24 hour alert are a recurring, near yearly feature of life in many parts of the Netherlands! To the Dutch this has become almost routine... or at least 'normal'.
