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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2018 22:17:30 GMT
I don't believe Bones is saying that and it did flummox Einstein..but Scientific American certainly shed more light on that....and as for Neil Bohr..wore the Ying Yang medallion..at his nobel award..Great hero of mine..just because things appear to be walking contradictions..don't we walk in a state of sometimes self contradictions ..yet function quite well..things resolve themselve most of the time..but its critical that be or there would be no growth..its the predicate for change..a balance of opposites..
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Post by bonehead on Jun 6, 2018 0:08:30 GMT
.. Just to be clear: "paranormal" is a category created by materialists in which to place human experiences that are immaterial in nature.. I would contend that they use the word 'paranormal' to hint at the existence of a parallel reality. Something that is 'probably' there but that we do not (yet) have a means of accessing. If you take, say, the human body and keep on reducing it you go down through the layers until you get to the Quarks. All atoms reduce to this level (and below). SO, as atoms are mostly nothing in that the space between the Protons, Neutrons and Electrons is far greater than the constituent parts, you can indeed say that we only exist as a collection of squiggly waves given mass by the Higgs Boson; the 'God Particle ' you were alluding to. The question becomes 'what is organising these squigglies into us ? And does this organiser itself have a reality. .. But you have to let go of those materialist notions of "real" being a result of materiality. .. So, when the planes hit the twin towers nothing really happened because there was no real material planes or towers ? It was all a figment of some imagination. HAL Hal,
You said it yourself: "you can indeed say that we only exist as a collection of squiggly waves given mass by the Higgs Boson; the 'God Particle ' you were alluding to."
Well, except that I do not believe there is any such thing as a "god particle". Poppycock and balderdash, in my opinion. Our whole experience of reality is a clever illusion. To quote Einstein: "reality is merely an illusion, albeit a persistent one". Our material world, our experience of it - everything is nothing more than phantoms and chimeras. They are experiential encounters with "things" of little substance. Matter, as you say is just a trace of wiggly "stuff" posing as what we perceive as solid material reality.
So, planes hitting towers? It is metaphor. Reality is a symbol. Yeah, the event affected many people in many different ways. And the world of our experience seems real, especially to our limited senses that are particularly attuned to the apprehension of the phantom substance we call "matter". But, ontologically we and our universe are mere shadows masquerading as reality. It could be argued that in the grand scheme of our lives, this fact means little to nothing. We still have our daily experiences and planes crash into buildings and presidents lose their marbles, yada yada yada. And, I still need to pay the rent at the end of the month.
But, if we are talking about outside agencies of unknown origin having interactions with us, then the above becomes more useful for understanding. As long as you do not hold onto those materialist ideas as if they are the holy grail. If you do that you become like Stan Friedman, a man generally unable or unwilling to think that UFOs can be anything other than spaceships driven by physical denizens of extrasolar planets. I do not believe you think they are that, and only that, any more than I do. There is too much fuzziness around the entire UFO phenomenon for it to be just one thing or another. UFOs exist in some liminal state where they only appear occasionally to some poor bastards that then find themselves having to explain to materialists that you actually did witness something anomalous. And, that just because you cannot offer material proof for the experience, it nevertheless was as "real" as any other material experience. And that fact does not make you stupid, delusional or crazy. In fact, they are the delusional and stupid ones for thinking they can explain away your experiences with their fabricated explanations that, most of the time, have little do with the facts of your subjective experience.
If all this has taught me anything, it is that the status quo has no real grasp on this thing we call reality, and that their "skepticism" is more about willful ignorance than it is about "rationalism". So, i don't know. This explanation has strayed off point. I know you want me to tie the whole thing into a pretty bow that makes sense to how you are used to seeing the world. But I can't do that. I do not have enough information. The only thing I am certain of, is that we have all been sold a bill of goods as far as what this experience we call life is all about. And I also believe that there are indeed "outside agencies" interacting with us in strange ways that often defy logic. And I think it is that that drives me to continue trying to fluff up what little I have learned from my many and meandering studies over my 60 years of life.
So sorry. No precious nuggets of wisdom today. Life and the universe are bizarre crazy things that actively defy our ability to grasp them. Wiser men than me have concocted foolish and useless explanations for all that is. Why should I be different? So, I am here pissing in the wind saying things that few grasp because I am pretty damned sure that the stories we have been told to believe are just so much superstitious hogwash. Most do not even bother to listen to me anymore. So, I thank you for that! But I explained it as best I could in my own ignorant reverie. You are free to spurn the whole thing if it does not suit you. It is just the destination that I have come to today after many years of thinking about the whole thing. And, that's all there is to it....
Bonehead
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Post by ZETAR on Jun 6, 2018 2:47:58 GMT
HMMM...SUCH ENLIGHTENING EXCHANGES! SHOOTOUT AT THE CASEBOOK CORRAL Thomas Henry Huxley coined the word "agnostic" in 1869, and said "It simply means that a man shall not say he knows or believes that which he has no scientific grounds for professing to know or believe."
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AgnosticismSHALOM...Z
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2018 3:24:25 GMT
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Post by HAL on Jun 6, 2018 21:17:45 GMT
So, Friend Bonehead,
What are we ?
HAL (The Unbeliever)
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Post by bonehead on Jun 6, 2018 23:24:26 GMT
We are conscious beings having a material experience.
I think those "outside agencies" are conscious beings too. but I have no idea what kind of experience they are having.
Unbeliever, what is that? I do not think that anybody can experience life without picking up some beliefs along the way. I have all kind of wacked out beliefs. If you had no beliefs, you would never have asked the questions you did above....
I believe that.
Bonehead
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Post by swamprat on Jun 7, 2018 16:15:24 GMT
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Post by ZETAR on Jun 7, 2018 17:06:22 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2018 1:07:26 GMT
It's The Thought That Counts
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Post by purr on Jun 8, 2018 9:08:45 GMT
.. Just to be clear: "paranormal" is a category created by materialists in which to place human experiences that are immaterial in nature.. I would contend that they use the word 'paranormal' to hint at the existence of a parallel reality. Something that is 'probably' there but that we do not (yet) have a means of accessing. If you take, say, the human body and keep on reducing it you go down through the layers until you get to the Quarks. All atoms reduce to this level (and below). SO, as atoms are mostly nothing in that the space between the Protons, Neutrons and Electrons is far greater than the constituent parts, you can indeed say that we only exist as a collection of squiggly waves given mass by the Higgs Boson; the 'God Particle ' you were alluding to. The question becomes 'what is organising these squigglies into us ? And does this organiser itself have a reality. .. But you have to let go of those materialist notions of "real" being a result of materiality. .. So, when the planes hit the twin towers nothing really happened because there was no real material planes or towers ? It was all a figment of some imagination. HAL Hal,
You said it yourself: "you can indeed say that we only exist as a collection of squiggly waves given mass by the Higgs Boson; the 'God Particle ' you were alluding to."
Well, except that I do not believe there is any such thing as a "god particle". Poppycock and balderdash, in my opinion. Our whole experience of reality is a clever illusion. To quote Einstein: "reality is merely an illusion, albeit a persistent one". Our material world, our experience of it - everything is nothing more than phantoms and chimeras. They are experiential encounters with "things" of little substance. Matter, as you say is just a trace of wiggly "stuff" posing as what we perceive as solid material reality.
So, planes hitting towers? It is metaphor. Reality is a symbol. Yeah, the event affected many people in many different ways. And the world of our experience seems real, especially to our limited senses that are particularly attuned to the apprehension of the phantom substance we call "matter". But, ontologically we and our universe are mere shadows masquerading as reality. It could be argued that in the grand scheme of our lives, this fact means little to nothing. We still have our daily experiences and planes crash into buildings and presidents lose their marbles, yada yada yada. And, I still need to pay the rent at the end of the month.
But, if we are talking about outside agencies of unknown origin having interactions with us, then the above becomes more useful for understanding. As long as you do not hold onto those materialist ideas as if they are the holy grail. If you do that you become like Stan Friedman, a man generally unable or unwilling to think that UFOs can be anything other than spaceships driven by physical denizens of extrasolar planets. I do not believe you think they are that, and only that, any more than I do. There is too much fuzziness around the entire UFO phenomenon for it to be just one thing or another. UFOs exist in some liminal state where they only appear occasionally to some poor bastards that then find themselves having to explain to materialists that you actually did witness something anomalous. And, that just because you cannot offer material proof for the experience, it nevertheless was as "real" as any other material experience. And that fact does not make you stupid, delusional or crazy. In fact, they are the delusional and stupid ones for thinking they can explain away your experiences with their fabricated explanations that, most of the time, have little do with the facts of your subjective experience.
If all this has taught me anything, it is that the status quo has no real grasp on this thing we call reality, and that their "skepticism" is more about willful ignorance than it is about "rationalism". So, i don't know. This explanation has strayed off point. I know you want me to tie the whole thing into a pretty bow that makes sense to how you are used to seeing the world. But I can't do that. I do not have enough information. The only thing I am certain of, is that we have all been sold a bill of goods as far as what this experience we call life is all about. And I also believe that there are indeed "outside agencies" interacting with us in strange ways that often defy logic. And I think it is that that drives me to continue trying to fluff up what little I have learned from my many and meandering studies over my 60 years of life.
So sorry. No precious nuggets of wisdom today. Life and the universe are bizarre crazy things that actively defy our ability to grasp them. Wiser men than me have concocted foolish and useless explanations for all that is. Why should I be different? So, I am here pissing in the wind saying things that few grasp because I am pretty damned sure that the stories we have been told to believe are just so much superstitious hogwash. Most do not even bother to listen to me anymore. So, I thank you for that! But I explained it as best I could in my own ignorant reverie. You are free to spurn the whole thing if it does not suit you. It is just the destination that I have come to today after many years of thinking about the whole thing. And, that's all there is to it....
Bonehead
Thanks for clearing that up, Bonehead ! Or maybe this is fundamentally impossible schtuff to fully grasp (based on available data sets). I get that you remain open to the possibility that some UFO observations/experiences fit a 'material' category, for instance if an object is seen plus corroborated by radar. Also you acknowledge that some alien experiences are predominantly in the mind (which may turn out a infinitely bigger and more interesting space than we so far believed). But your emphasis that our minds are ultimately the instrument by which we perceive both (apparent) categories leaves UFOlogy where...? Everything is illusion? I'm really unhappy with that . My mind needs happiness, Bonehead. And so I'd prefer a model with a fair to infinite amount (who's counting anyway?) of overlapping/connected alternative REALITIES to place my (and other's reported) experiences in, for convenience calling the most nuts&bolts ones 'real' in the sense of our own, known reality. High strangeness cases (including religious, paranormally tinted or the downright bizarre) then become candidates for other versions of reality. I'm happy now because this gives me lots of neat boxes to put everything in. Also, if the spirit takes me, I can play by experimentally changing boxes' contents around to see how that feels. Playing is learning, so I keep playing. I don't feel a need to throw much UFO stuff out: I find 'official' denials, cover ups, definitively debunked cases and DEEP BLACK psy ops among the most informative material. What I'm saying... is that to me it is all (to various degrees) real... purr
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Post by HAL on Jun 8, 2018 21:04:46 GMT
ZETAR,
.. Even if you separate entangled particles by billions of miles, changing one particle will induce a change in the other...
As you can't be at both ends of this billion miles 'link' at the same time, how would you know ?
HAL
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Post by HAL on Jun 8, 2018 21:16:28 GMT
Bonehead, .. .Unbeliever, what is that? I do not think that anybody can experience life without picking up some beliefs along the way... ... If you had no beliefs, you would never have asked the questions you did above... This life you talk about. Define it. If you believe that there is no corpus involved, and life and the body are inextricable mixed, How can your non material life have a (material) body. .. I have all kind of wacked out beliefs.. Now that I can believe. Sorry, but the Bonehead Church of Immaterial Existentialism does not appeal to me. HAL
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Post by GhostofEd on Jun 8, 2018 23:22:13 GMT
ZETAR, .. Even if you separate entangled particles by billions of miles, changing one particle will induce a change in the other... As you can't be at both ends of this billion miles 'link' at the same time, how would you know ? HAL Then again, how would you not know?
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Post by moksha on Jun 8, 2018 23:54:25 GMT
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Post by bonehead on Jun 9, 2018 16:11:15 GMT
Thanks for clearing that up, Bonehead ! Or maybe this is fundamentally impossible schtuff to fully grasp (based on available data sets).
No, it is not "impossible" to understand. You just need to let go of the materialist superstitions we have all been instilled with by our culture. Matter is not the be all to end all. In fact unless you are paying attention to it, it its not there at all. That is a fact of quantum mechanics.
I get that you remain open to the possibility that some UFO observations/experiences fit a 'material' category, for instance if an object is seen plus corroborated by radar. Also you acknowledge that some alien experiences are predominantly in the mind (which may turn out a infinitely bigger and more interesting space than we so far believed). But your emphasis that our minds are ultimately the instrument by which we perceive both (apparent) categories leaves UFOlogy where...?
It leaves it as a natural experience in our material world - or the same on a conscious level. This is just me theorizing, but I believe that other realities do exist and that the common factor between all is consciousness. So, conscious experiences should be the litmus test for reality, not matter, which is ephemeral and subject to conscious influence. That would make things like ghosts, ESP and UFOs real, because we experience them consciously. Consciousness is real, matter is subordinate to that. Everything is illusion? I'm really unhappy with that . Yeah, so is science! That is because science stems from the superstition that matter is primary and the litmus test for what is "real". Like I said, you have to let go of those ideas, they are silly outmoded beliefs that are disproven by quantum mechanics. If you do that, you will be well ahead of the curve of the rest of humanity....
How about that?My mind needs happiness, Bonehead. And so I'd prefer a model with a fair to infinite amount (who's counting anyway?) of overlapping/connected alternative REALITIES to place my (and other's reported) experiences in, for convenience calling the most nuts&bolts ones 'real' in the sense of our own, known reality. High strangeness cases (including religious, paranormally tinted or the downright bizarre) then become candidates for other versions of reality.
They ARE all connected! You have the quantum plenum or generative energy field which interpenetrates all. And the connecting tissue, if I am right, is consciousness. So, yeah you can call them other versions of reality or dimensions if that makes you comfortable. But it is consciousness that ties them together, not matter. I'm happy now because this gives me lots of neat boxes to put everything in. Also, if the spirit takes me, I can play by experimentally changing boxes' contents around to see how that feels. Playing is learning, so I keep playing. I don't feel a need to throw much UFO stuff out: I find 'official' denials, cover ups, definitively debunked cases and DEEP BLACK psy ops among the most informative material. What I'm saying... is that to me it is all (to various degrees) real...
Sure. It is as real as any other phantom you experience. I will repeat these quotes again because they really get to the heart of the matter:
"Matter is just an illusion, albeit a persistent one." Albert Einstein
"Everything we call real is made up of things that cannot be considered real." Niels Bohr These guys studied this stuff. It was their life work. Are you going to believe them or a bunch of misguided textbooks you were given in school? purr
I found this good basic article online that helps to put this stuff into perspective:www.collective-evolution.com/2014/03/08/10-scientific-studies-that-prove-consciousness-can-alter-our-physical-material-world/Cheers!!
Bonehead
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