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Post by purr on Apr 3, 2021 9:55:33 GMT
I tell you what guys I have a game we can play. How about you volunteer a dearly loved family member and I can cuff them then put them on the ground and put my knee on there neck.......until they die. Now the next person who posts something pro police has to put up a name. I recognize that game, though not as something we could realistically 'play' today: called tribal warfare in pre-state societies it came down to 'if one of my tribe is harmed or killed by another tribe our men will band together and take vengeance on the offenders'. Things often got genocidal over the past millennia (passions flare over loved ones harmed, we are only human). There's even records of 'let's kill'm all' actions, whole tribes wiped out including women, children and cattle in the Bible. In the empathic mind experiment you suggest, the outcome in many normal minds will be that we take George Floyd into our familial circle as if a cherished member of our own family. I hope so at least . We are all human beings, family members in the great tribe of Humanity. (And human nature still holds its innately vengeful urges and tendencies.) Just imagine ancient justice where we place Derek Chauvin in the hands of George Floyd's bereaved family to play out the game however they would deem fit. Gus, might I submit to you TODAY WE ARE PLAYING THIS GAME called the State of Minnesota v. Derek Michael Chauvin Jury Trial. Charges are second-degree murder, third-degree murder, and second-degree manslaughter. For all it's worth, guy is facing up to 40 years in prison. purr
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Post by purr on Apr 3, 2021 13:15:51 GMT
Well Purr I applaud your lawyer-like abilities to switch off,explain to me, the man was cuffed,why 4 to hold him down, did they think he was SuperHuman. The minute he peed the pavement, he was dead.Why did it continue. The officer was getting his rocks off. Great question, Thelmadonna. Simple answer: initially this was a non issue, because the Cup Foods store manager called the police over a customer (Floyd) purchasing sigs with an apparent fake 20. When followed out to his car by store employees and asked to return the sigarettes Floyd refused at which point he became a suspect for forgery and theft. The nr. of responding officers were the standard 2, namely officers Kuen and Lane. Arriving at the intersection where Cup Foods is located and George Floyd and passengers were sitting inside a car at 8:08 PM the two officers attempted to detain Floyd for about 10 minutes, who although being cuffed exhibited a pattern of continued erratic behaviors (babbling like crazy alternating between 'don't shoot me' and multiple repeats of "I can't breathe" to calming down and feeling "better" to claustrophobic panic to requesting he'd be put on the ground) and resistance so police failed to take him in for processing. Ten minutes is a long time with onlookers closing in so securing the perimeter had become another concern. A third officer then had arrived who began guarding the police car. 8:17 PM Derek Chauvin with partner Thao arrived, Chauvin taking charge as senior officer. Thus the number of available officers on the scene was 5, and the natural outcome of the 10 minutes delay in the seemingly simple task of detaining Floyd and moving him out of the area. George still refused to be placed inside a police car. A crowd with cams and critical comments was forming. Thelmadonna, it was not for lack of trying: in spite of cuffs, a calming sidewalk chat with African-American officer Kuen and a whole lot of pushing, pulling and negotiating the two first responder officers couldn't make George Floyd get in that car. I believe Chauvin then by way of last resort decided on immobilizing Floyd on the ground, because the extended bout of wresting with the upright detainee had thusfar proved unfruitful. The techniques on worldwide display, in photos and videos, of the knee restraint by officer Chauvin, with a time span of assistance by two officers (it would seem that the real world answer to your posted question = 3, with intent to calm & immobilize) applying their body weight on mr. Floyd's torso and legs are standard curriculum taught in many Martial Art styles. I predict Chauvin's lawyers will dig up footage of police instructors instilling knee restraints over the course of basic training. I have been a serious student of MA and Self Defense since age 6 and I was taught to restrain an opponent with a knee and my body weight. I also have been on the receiving end, pinned down under knees, big heavy guys standing on my back, held in choke holds what have you. Duration: tens of seconds. I was not happy I kid you not! THESE TECHNIQUES ARE EXTREMELY TIME SENSITIVE. Participants must pay 100% attention, ready to release, or pat a Judo signal for release/ending restraint at the earliest indication of distress. The Defense Team in Chauvin's trial have a biggo problem. They must create reasonable doubt, ..Mmmm... must actually do even better than that for the Jury, regarding the inevitable Prosecution theory claiming the 9:29 minute knee restraint by Chauvin on George Floyd's neck and upper back area constituted a causal factor in his death. I think Chauvin must also give account of why he continued restraining George Floyd for such extended duration. More to follow.
purr
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Post by plutronus on Apr 5, 2021 1:45:43 GMT
I tell you what guys I have a game we can play. How about you volunteer a dearly loved family member and I can cuff them then put them on the ground and put my knee on there neck.......until they die. Now the next person who posts something pro police has to put up a name. I put up 'Gus' :))
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Post by purr on Apr 5, 2021 5:57:57 GMT
Warning: this is disturbing video, especially (Gus, Plutronus ) if you think of putting yourself in place of George Floyd. I used it to discover timeline and mechanism of George's death yet found myself caught up in the drama and emotion of this arrest and feeling deeply troubled. Not suited for young / sensitive souls!
That said, this particular Wikipedia selected footage covers the last 7:53 minutes of the total 9:29 duration of Chauvin's knee restraint. It shows the moments where Floyd's condition appeared to deteriorate, suggestive of loss of consciousness, going into cardiac arrest. At mark 6:50 we see the paramedic check for a pulse, as officer Lane is reported to already have done shortly before. To do so the paramedic has to reach over Derek Chauvin's knee still planted on Floyd's neck. I expect that same as Lane he found no pulse. Such information is not kept to oneself and Chauvin must have absorbed and realized Floyd was experiencing a medical crisis and his heart had stopped. At mark 7:03 (perhaps a few seconds earlier, but the view is obscured by officer Thao who is jumping back and forth to hold back onlookers with phonecams) Chauvin has shifted his weight off George Floyd's neck by leaning to his right, his left knee now more lightly checking Floyd's shoulder blade area. At 7:53 in the video Chauvin's knee comes off Floyd altogether as medical services take over and he is moved, hands still cuffed behind his back, onto an ambulance gurney and taken to hospital.
Vid shows how officer Chauvin immediately ended his knee restraint to (visually) Floyd's neck area when the paramedic, seconds after 6:50 mark, reports the absence of a pulse. This begs the question whether there were earlier indications (I presume there were) of Floyd experiencing distress and of his vital functions becoming compromised and why Chauvin did not end the restraint earlier. Did he miss or choose to ignore them? Did the increasingly concerned and loudly vocalizing onlookers distract him (as the Defense postulates) or even had drawn him into a contest of wills with Chauvin IN HIS MIND fatefully demonstrating he would not be deterred from making an arrest: not by crowd intimidation - DEFINITELY NOT BY THIS NON STOP ONE MAN THEATER PLAYING DEAD!!
Perhaps too late Derek Chauvin found out that George Floyd wasn't playing, if ever he was at the start of interacting with police, and this arrest had taken a horrific turn. For everyone involved but for Floyd most of all.
purr
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2021 19:54:06 GMT
Until now, I'd never seen that video. It is ( as Purr mentioned) disturbing and difficult to watch. I digress.
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Post by plutronus on Apr 6, 2021 16:11:30 GMT
Warning: this is disturbing video, especially (Gus, Plutronus ) if you think of putting yourself in place of George Floyd. I used it to discover timeline and mechanism of George's death yet found myself caught up in the drama and emotion of this arrest and feeling deeply troubled. Not suited for young / sensitive souls!
purr Purr, spoken as a true dem-wokey.
I'll share with you what I have learned that I have found that is truly disturbing, is that the public thinks that since they see something on video, that it is the summation of the entire truth and that THEY are qualified by simply relying on that peice of information to determine what actually transpired concerning an event. For instance, remember all the conspiracy videos of the WTC buildings collapsing and all the windows blowing out? "Controlled-demolition" is what they were espouting, hah hah! Relying on video. Science steam-rolled over that bump.
So, unless one is sitting inside the courtroom, day in and day out, watching all the proceedings, witnessing jury instructions, no one outside of the courtroom has a clue about how the events truly transpired. I was a sitting jury member of a very long murder trial in LA MexiCal. Initially I was just as clueless as anyone else who had been outside of the process, but eventually I was sufficiently edified thusly enabling me to able to see the underlying truths through all the lies by everyone, the lawyers, the defendent, and friends, everyone was lying. But in the end, the black guy on trial, murdered his girl-friend with a razor, slitting her throat, irregardless of what the BS defense cooked up. While the local TV news was spouting the exact opposite. They are only interested in ratings, the drama, the money, money, money! TV news media have become greedy scum.
So Purr, what makes you special, that you think you can look at just the video and know what really happened? You a lawyer? You an expert in Mn justice law? You ever sit in a jury of a murder trial? What qualifies you? Let us see how the trial concludes, I mean considering that virtually everyone in the Mn political system are anti-police, because of the numbers of anti-white racist blacks that are in the government there. Same problem here in LA, too many foreigners in our government who don't think American. 50 years of democrat borne Quota/Equal Opportunity hiring caused that problem.
You wanna see something? Take a look at Google Earth Street View of the surrounding area where Floyd was passing the counterfeit money (not once, but the second time, in the same store a month apart). The entire area is black. You ever expend any time in black areas? I roller-skated 40 years with blacks. Their's is a different reality than 'white priviledge' areas. It is my opinion, that nothing is safe outside, no one is safe outside, people are afraid walking down the streets. If one is not in a tribal gang, one has no protection, and the police who are forced to patrol those areas, are all on edge, as they are interacting with ignorance, stupidity, moronic activities, liars, theives, murderers and everyone is packing, even little kids carry weapons. Everyone in those areas are carrying something deadly, eg., razors, stillettos, ice-picks, machettes, guns, shotguns. I saw a 10yro cleaning his Glock, sitting on the steps of his house, that was 30 years ago. And blacks HATE the cops. Why? They are always doing something illegal, and I'm not talking about drugs, because even the 'normal' Black-Americans use drugs, no I'm talking about the criminal things that the other blacks do...it is their way of life. A police stop somewhere within a black area, the blacks swarm out of their houses, surrounding the police, spitting on them, calling them names, maliciously threateningly crowding the officers, and if they see anything that they can claim was police brutality, they all chime in, using their cellphone cameras, using every and any excuse, accusing the officers of doing intentional harm. Afterall, might lead to a juicy lawsuit.
Cops are just people and they also make mistakes, especially when working under significant stress. Maybe Chauvin made a mistake, who's fault is it?
I still believe Police Officer Chauvin was just doing his job even if he made mistakes or was sick and tired of the constant black racist BS and their threatening behaviors toward them, the police.
America will not tolerate another black/'woke' tantrum, however.
The reason US wins the big wars isn't because we are the smartest, but because we are the most deadly when we get pushed. As things stand, dems are on wrong side.
Like many white-priviledge white sin racists, I'm starting to get pissed off.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2021 17:12:57 GMT
Plutronus,
Of course I'm not ( honorable member and Mod.) Purr, but I have sit on a jury in a murder trial (and two other jurys - And a HUGE NO THANK YOU to a Grand jury ! We found the young man not guilty. Still, another innocent young man died, and sadly no one was convicted.
Edit to add about Ca. : Native. Haven't been there since the early 80's. Aint goin back !!!
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Post by purr on Apr 7, 2021 3:36:18 GMT
Until now, I'd never seen that video. It is ( as Purr mentioned) disturbing and difficult to watch. I digress. Hi Sparcturus, I'm not at all sure you're digressing. The wealth of footage, shot from several angles including police bodycams showing individual officer's perspective, showing George Floyd's last minutes of life, elicit a strong emotional response in everybody with a heart. Through the cams every human being on earth has become an eye witness to a man's death, we empathize (even sweet Plutronus does when push comes to shove ), all briefly associate with our own mortality and wonder about the mystery of death. Regardless of Cause / Circumstances / Blame... George Floyd experienced a difficult passage into the next life. Troubling to see. But something else troubled me as well. Note the vocalizations of the onlookers some of whom are shooting video like the one you commented on. I hear them warning/advising/criticizing Chauvin and Thao (nimbly engaged in one man crowd control), much of that purportedly meant to help police. I hear harassment too, perhaps aimed at interfering with police making an arrest. When the store clerk lends support to the pleas for Chauvin to let up on his knee restraint he is THREATENED ('we know you your family where you work/live') by one bystander/videographer and made to leave, as if the 'Director' steps in, and an 'actor' not fitting the 'script' is removed from the scene. Goes to an effort to 'frame' these vids as (it would appear) police brutality, racially motivated even before the fatal outcome is known. What I described above imo may well be indicative of deception, coupled with everybody watching, that is: deception on a global scale. The way I model this, there may have been a well matured and ongoing campaign to discredit police by filming arrests involving the use of force. Such effort might serve gang interests, part of the local public would be aware and willing to play along. Some neighborhoods could then turn into Police Traps. purr
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Post by purr on Apr 7, 2021 5:26:35 GMT
And just before hitting the sack there's snippets of CNN Chauvin Trial coverage. About 90% is Prosecution cheerleading, 10% dissenting voices referring to problems with the case. One proposed cause of George Floyd's death was Hypoxia, not enough oxygen reaches the body's tissues and vital organs. Panel members / experts resonating with the Prosecution theories explained the hypoxia finding was evidence for the common sense explanation: Chauvin's 9:29 min knee restraint compresses George Floyd's neck, obstructing his breathing. He is asphyxiated / suffocates due to the duration of the restraint and delaying resuscitation too long after his cardiac arrest. Hence the forensic finding hypoxia.
Problems with that: Chauvin's knee is at the 'wrong' side of the neck to impede breathing. The spinal column, although it could deform or break itself under excess pressure, effectively shields the more frontal breathing apparatus and circulatory system. There's no report so far of damage to mr. Floyd's throat or windpipe. Furthermore the videos show George Floyd continually talking from 8:08 PM when officers Lane and Kuen open the door to his car parked across Cup Foods, to well into the fateful 9:29 minutes of Derek Chauvin applying the knee restraint. Guy is talking ..ah.. Schtuff... as well as repeating (at least 16 times throughout) "I can't breathe". Police are trained to monitor for breathing ability by listening to a detainee's speech. "I can't breathe" chants included: paradoxically if one can say "I can't breathe" dozens of times they are breathing just fine!
I predict the defense will maintain that Chauvin was reasonably convinced that Floyd was NOT having difficulty breathing due to his continued speech while pinned down.
Of course we do see Floyd go silent in the videos, stop moving, suggesting he lost consciousness followed by cardiac arrest, Lane and the arriving paramedic finding no pulse.
Is there a viable alternative for asphyxia from the knee restraint? One of the CNN panel says yes, the hypoxia/oxygen failing to reach the body tissues can be caused by the drugs in George Floyd's system. One other possibility, not at all mutually exclusive with drugs contributing to his death, is Floyd's cardiovascular illness including an enlarged heart, the sum total of his interaction with police amounting to a fatal overload stopping his heart.
Since both Floyd's drug/meds use and heart disease are beyond the arresting officers' control, if it can be shown they are possible causal factors in his death, any murder conviction becomes unlikely.
But then there's still the Prosecution's final play: the 'lesser' charges of third-degree murder and manslaughter.
purr
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Post by ZETAR on Apr 7, 2021 18:24:42 GMT
PURR ASSESSES, "Since both Floyd's drug/meds use and heart disease are beyond the arresting officers' control, if it can be shown they are possible causal factors in his death, any murder conviction becomes unlikely."LET'S REMOVE THE LAW ENFORCMENT INVOLVEMENT FOR ONE MOMENT. THE TOXIC COCKTAIL THAT WAS DETERMINED TO HAVE ALREADY BEEN INGESTED...LEADS ONE TO CONSIDER THIS PERSON WOULD'VE CRASHED AND BURNED REGARDLESS OF ANYONE BEING AROUND HIM (LAW ENFORCEMENT OR NOT)...IMHO!
Fentanyl Being Mixed with Meth, Cocaine adding to the Overdose Body Count
Fentanyl being produced in China has started crossing into US borders and methamphetamine and Cocaine has become more available. Fentanyl’s potency is becoming increasingly seen as a strong additive to mix with other illicit drugs that can make users keep coming back for more. Users are unaware of the dangerous addition’s amount or presence at all can make their next consumption their last.
therecover.com/fentanyl-being-mixed-with-meth-cocaine-adding-to-the-overdose-body-count/
“Today it is more lethal than it ever was, because now many times it does have this fentanyl mixed in, so it’s really a new concoction,” Ohio Attorney General Mike DeWine said about increased cocaine and meth. “People don’t really know how potent it is.”
HAVING SAID THE ABOVE...I THINK PURR IS ON TRACK!
"if it can be shown they are possible causal factors in his death, any murder conviction becomes unlikely."
WHICH LEADS TO:
Reasonable Doubt
A standard of proof that must be surpassed to convict an accused in a criminal proceeding.
legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/reasonable+doubt
Reasonable doubt is a standard of proof used in criminal trials. When a criminal defendant is prosecuted, the prosecutor must prove the defendant's guilt Beyond a Reasonable Doubt. If the jury—or the judge in a bench trial—has a reasonable doubt as to the defendant's guilt, the jury or judge should pronounce the defendant not guilty. Conversely, if the jurors or judge have no doubt as to the defendant's guilt, or if their only doubts are unreasonable doubts, then the prosecutor has proven the defendant's guilt beyond a reasonable doubt and the defendant should be pronounced guilty.
SHALOM...Z
EDIT TO ADD:
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Post by purr on Apr 9, 2021 1:24:25 GMT
This short but significant footage is already embedded in a previous post by ZETAR, has been addressed by both prosecutors and Chauvin's defense team and now I'm adding yet another youtube showing same:
The vid above comes off officer Kuen's body cam, and lets us listen in to the noise soup surrounding Chauvin and collegues working to restrain George Floyd on the ground. As this witness alludes, as he is questioned by a defense lawyer: it is quite hard to make out. But Floyd is saying something. Defense team hears: "I ate too many drugs" and once they suggest this interpretation to the witness he eventually concurs. The Prosecution hears it differently: "I hate doing too many drugs" and the same witness on redirect decides he agrees with the second version.
I'm not one to let others tell me what I am hearing (or seeing) so I did some repeats on my television with decent sound, taken from CNN's Cuomo Prime Time reporting on this item and I heard George say: "I had too many drugs".
I remember reading in Steven Pinker's books, dealing broadly with Evolutionary Psychology but also explaining at length how a human mind hears, recognizes and understands speech. It comes down to our species' possessing extraordinary and unique language abilities, using speech and writing to communicate and record information as well as create literary works of art, yet we will frequently run into trouble when trying to interpret complex real world sounds.
George Floyd wasn't crisply articulating into a sensitive mike, words and voice isolated in a soundproof studio. Instead he uttered the 'too many drugs' declaration surrounded by random noise and heckling bystanders while, in fairness, he was experiencing a high level of physical duress. Uttered under such (not entirely uncommon) adverse circumstances a sentence similar to the three shown here in large font is hard to make out, in fact, as I understand the science, it may be virtually impossible to objectively establish which, if any, of these three phrases is accurate. Human listeners may arrive at the true selection using consensus among many skilled listeners, language recognition programs and AI registering sounds well beyond human hearing range. But even then, whether we admit it or not, some guesswork is involved. By the way, guessing is human, it is healthy, and making a large number of good guesses throughout your life will get you a reputation for having 'great judgement' and more or less correlates with being sane.
Simply: we most likely will never be sure of what Floyd said precisely, although common sense might dictate he was referring to his own drug use.
Floyd's 'too many drugs' phrase is superfluous anyhow in regard to his intoxication since the forensic findings of fetanyl and methamphetamine levels in his blood will be an objective basis for arguing that during his arrest he was hovering between under the influence and high as a kite and in serious danger from acute hypoxia and heart arrest due to his medication/drug intake.
Floyd's words are imo significant, if given proper weight and reflection by the Defense and the Jury, because they may have been heard (in whatever form) by the officers within hearing, who then used this information in their split second decision making process. Chauvin may have just heard "too many drugs" or even "I had too many drugs" and taken it as yet more confirmation Floyd was on drugs (and needed to be dealt with in accordingly). Goes to the defendant's state of mind and most vital under Minnesota law: INTENT. If the lawyers choose to let him take the stand (a Hail Mary if ever there was one) that would be a great line of questioning. How did you assess George Floyds medical state? How does this relate to your decision to apply a ground restraint, and what did you intend to achieve with this method?
purr
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Post by plutronus on Apr 9, 2021 18:40:58 GMT
Purr,
Remember that the prosecution presents their perspective first, and then the defense presents its perspective. All we've seen so far has been the prosecution's case, when their case is fully presented then the defense will present their version of the case to the jury.
Since we started this conversation I have been watching the trial on CSPAN, and I have to admit that the prosecution's presentation appears to be quite damning. And, it is my opinion that many police officers really don't give a hoot about the state of health of an arrestee. I have personally been mistreated by officers of the California police agencies and I'm not a bad guy, but I made the mistake of questioning their authority based upon one's known constitutional rights. I learned the hard way, as I suspect that many police officers, in my opinion really don't care one way or the other, unless one pis.ses them off, which I did. When I was pulled over, I had been in California 6 hours; I had long hair and I was driving too slow in the 'fast-lane' of the Ventura freeway, everyone was doing 75, and I was doing the posted speed-limit of 65 mph. I was pulled over for "impeding the flow of traffic". A law that is enforced, but which is not identified in the California Vehical Code.
Its a mixed bag. I still hold the opinion that Chauvin is innocent of murder, however, it is also very likely in my opinion he may also be a pedigree dumb-a.ss who was guilty of making stupid mistakes and that he may have been being a bit vindictive for some unknown reason (he and Floyd had worked together at one time), in any case, according to the prosection's case he appears to guilty of manslaughter.
Irregardless, only the jury has the jurisdiction to make the final call as to degree of guilt. We may not like it, but its the law.
plutronus
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Post by purr on Apr 10, 2021 17:57:44 GMT
Purr,
Remember that the prosecution presents their perspective first, and then the defense presents its perspective. All we've seen so far has been the prosecution's case, when their case is fully presented then the defense will present their version of the case to the jury.
Since we started this conversation I have been watching the trial on CSPAN, and I have to admit that the prosecution's presentation appears to be quite damning. And, it is my opinion that many police officers really don't give a hoot about the state of health of an arrestee. I have personally been mistreated by officers of the California police agencies and I'm not a bad guy, but I made the mistake of questioning their authority based upon one's known constitutional rights. I learned the hard way, as I suspect that many police officers, in my opinion really don't care one way or the other, unless one pis.ses them off, which I did. When I was pulled over, I had been in California 6 hours; I had long hair and I was driving too slow in the 'fast-lane' of the Ventura freeway, everyone was doing 75, and I was doing the posted speed-limit of 65 mph. I was pulled over for "impeding the flow of traffic". A law that is enforced, but which is not identified in the California Vehical Code.
Its a mixed bag. I still hold the opinion that Chauvin is innocent of murder, however, it is also very likely in my opinion he may also be a pedigree dumb-a.ss who was guilty of making stupid mistakes and that he may have been being a bit vindictive for some unknown reason (he and Floyd had worked together at one time), in any case, according to the prosection's case he appears to guilty of manslaughter.
Irregardless, only the jury has the jurisdiction to make the final call as to degree of guilt. We may not like it, but its the law.
plutronus Hi Plutronus, astute observations in post, I'm sorry to hear of your experience with CSP officers and it immediately calls to mind a universal truth concerning Police, holds true even in my super nice country the Netherlands with one of the most easygoing police forces on Earth: if you engage them in any kind of competitive fashion the default response is to compete right back merely to establish who's in charge while a suspect / member of the public is stopped and talked with. Even if you're within your right. Police need to be in control of the situation to survive that 1 in 10,000 encounter with a stone cold killer with a firearm under his seat or at the small of his back. And they get to practice such tactics in many of the other 9,999 encounters with ordinary folk on the road trying to get from A to B. Don't need to say this for you, you know perfectly. But to young idealistic souls making their way into the world, there's one rule for surviving getting stopped by police... BE CALM, COURTEOUS AND COMPLIANT.. period... there's nothing else. Of course drinking or using drugs prior to participating in traffic means that you are in trouble the moment you get stopped. Police have a nose/furry snout for distinct smells and keen eye for off behaviors. It's a bit of a let down, feels unfair and even humiliating, that good persons should apply an overabundance of caution while dealing with police. I say it beats being good and dead. And we're back on topic with the death while being taken into custody, of George Floyd. Not saying he was 'good' or 'bad', just that once his antics, or bizarre behaviors (..AGITATION...TALKING BACK...RESISTING on and off for 10 minutes absent Derek Chauvin) toward officers Kuen and Lane started he put himself in grave danger. I appreciate you following the trial more extensively on C-Span (due to both personal time constraints and media availability the past days I had to make do - brilliant reporting but too brief - with Chris Cuomo's excerpts and panel discussions of same on CNN!) and agree the prosecution has laid out an impressive case. I also agree with your insight that a US Minnesota Court Jury Trial is a unique legal arena and the only ones properly qualified and charged with deciding guilt or innocence of defendant Derek Chauvin are doing so for real inside that court room.
And I pray, regarding the Judge, Prosecutors, Defense Lawyers and Members of the Jury, and especially officer Chauvin, never forgetting George Floyd & family, that Justice will be done. But, dear Plutronus, this here dam wookie (or whatever the hell you were calling me ?) is doing something entirely different. Simply, when I noticed that Chauvin from the gitgo was being tried (or rather: convicted as racist murderer) in the court of public opinion, I thought uh... I am public, have opinion, plus I can't help notice the 'black outrage framing' of Floyd's arrest videos and MSM reporting, some of the wildest claims made based on said footage and the resulting wide spread presumption of Chauvin's guilt. I see a man, a police officer MARKED FOR DEATH (I believe prison prepares a most special welcome for ex-cops) and felt the deepest urge to provide some balance inside that latter informal 'court'. I wonder: where are Chauvin's champions? I want to see some from the black community as well as white folk. There should be legal experts pointing out the little things like the Presumption of Innocence. WHERE ARE HIS COLLEGUES, INCLUDING HIS DIRECT SUPERIORS standing up for their fellow officer? I HAD THE STRONGEST SENSE OF NO FAIR! (Now you know where I am coming from.)
My thoughts/opinion. As you say, the prosecution is making a compelling case centering on the subdual and knee restraint by Chauvin. Core prosecution theory is that the combined subdual and restraint by Chauvin (knee compressing Floyd's neck), Kuen (on torso) and Lane (on legs) impeded Floyd's breathing (Asphyxia), causing insufficient oxygen to reach his tissues (Hypoxia), resulting in loss of consciousness, cardiac arrest and death. Thus the actions of Chauvin constituted a substantial factor contributing to Floyd's death. HOWEVER, there are problems with that. As reported by CNN Cuomo Prime Time the Medical Examiner, prompted by the Defense, offered a hypothetical stating that if Floyd had been found dead in his home alone with doors closed, the fentanyl in his blood would have warranted a finding of death by drug overdose. This amounts to an admission that Floyd's body was deemed to have a potentially deadly level of fentanyl present, a substance known to induce coma and hypoxia, before and during the arrest. So how can we determine how much the fentanyl contributed v. the police restraint? There was no scientific evidence shown how these causal factors interrelate. Therefore the prosecution's contention that the police restraint, specifically Chauvin's knee compressing GF's neck, was a Substantial Contributing Factor to Floyd's death has as yet no basis in scientific fact. Instead the prosecution case seems to rely heavily on an appeal to reason, common sense (of the jury), and on expert authority (a doctor/scientist's claims must be true). The pulmonary specialist explaining Floyd's body language frame by frame, pinpointing his becoming unresponsive and exact moment of death, was convinced the neck compression led to George Floyd's death, in line with the prosecution theory. Again this is theory based on video analysis, and at best an expert opinion, not scientific proof of cause of death. Simply: showing exact time of death does not exclude the possibility that the Fentanyl in Floyd's bloodstream was the actual 'substantial contributing factor' OR EVEN killed him outright. One strong indicator of Floyd's breath being impeded (Asphyxia / Suffocation) would be the autopsy discovering something akin to ligature marks or so called petachea, anything akin to signs of injury to the neck or throat associated with suffocation victims. So far prosecutors have failed to present such evidence. THERE IS AS YET NO SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE THAT THE KNEE RESTRAINT IMPEDED FLOYD'S BREATHING.
The prosecution has included testimony that GF repeatedly complained "I can't breathe" while being restrained on the ground, once even adding a plea to Chauvin to take off the knee. Common sense thusly dictates (again: the jury can be expected to use common sense in their determinations) that it was Chauvin bearing down on Floyd that caused him to suffocate. This would seem to make sense HOWEVER if we may use Floyd's expressions of lack of breath as indicators of asphyxia/hypoxia or Suffocation and Oxygen Deficiency then what was causing it during the 10 minute window while Kuen and Lane where trying to put him into a police car? From several angles we see and hear Floyd pleading "I can't breathe" multiple times. If he was already suffering from lack of oxygen during the 10 minutes before Chauvin arrived at the Cup Foods location, isn't it likely his breathing and oxygen problems were caused by the fentanyl? Alternatively, if he was making it up as he went along, how can we be sure which of his 'cant breaths' are true signs of distress?
as George Floyd repeatedly informs police during 10 minutes before Derek Chauvin arrives. FLOYD EXPRESSING BREATHING DISTRESS INDEPENDENT OF THE KNEE RESTRAINT CONSTITUTES AN ELEMENT OF REASONABLE DOUBT IN REGARD TO CHAUVIN CAUSING FLOYD'S DEATH. purr
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Post by ZETAR on Apr 10, 2021 22:54:42 GMT
PURR,
YES!"FLOYD EXPRESSING BREATHING DISTRESS INDEPENDENT OF THE KNEE RESTRAINT CONSTITUTES AN ELEMENT OF REASONABLE DOUBT IN REGARD TO CHAUVIN CAUSING FLOYD'S DEATH."
SHALOM...Z
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Post by purr on Apr 14, 2021 15:59:34 GMT
Thanks ZETAR, any potent drug cocktail found to have been in Floyd's blood during his bizarre interactions with law enforcement officers trying varying tacks towards getting compliance, well actually getting degrees of non-compliance whether instructing show of hands (don't shoot me!), exit vehicle, take a seat in cruiser (refusal due to claustrophobia, 'can't breathe' and being 'choked'). He did for a minute sit down as asked on the sidewalk, chatting pleasantly enough with the officer, but the calming down effect did not last. Agitated was the default. ZETAR, I intend to get into the details of his wording and expressed emotion, worthwhile doing, but on the face of it mr. Floyd was all over the place. During minutes before Derek Chauvin arrived and after George Floyd was non-compliant, resisting, talked about getting shot, said he was scared, talked about his mama, sounded off as being the victim of police violence, and fatefully, when instructed to sit, requested to be put on the ground (I'm going down). Floyd also already was repeating his mantra or plea "I can't breathe". THIS IS THE KIND OF SCENE EXPERIENCED OFFICER CHAUVIN WAS CONFRONTED WITH. How his lawyers introduce this type of information into the trial is a matter of legal strategy, adaptive to American law and the peculiarities of engaging the Jury, something beyond my purview. If I were arriving at that arrest scene I might well get a sense that George Floyd was putting up a grand performance of many parts, victim of racial oppression, of police brutality, switching from reasonable to madman, making up excuses for his troublesome behaviors as he went along AND PLAYING POLICE who were being calm and professional attempting to talk him down (yet to no avail). Contrary to erroneous reporting, never was a gun aimed at George Floyd's head, instead one was briefly lined up with the ground before his feet. At this point Chauvin decided to apply the ground restraint, in an ultimate attempt to calm the suspect down, resulting in the horrific and deeply troubling Youtubes, and during which endless 9:29 minutes Floyd went from imho performing as Black Martyr for cams and sidewalk public to sadly dying for real, hopefully in the end going to his Mama and Jesus who from first Good Friday onward knows all about human suffering and loves all wrongdoers and fools. I better include myself too in such categories.
You may expect me to argue (as I have been doing Ad Nauseum) that Chauvin and his fellow officers' actions and apparent intent are not consistent with the crime of murder in any degree. Police were affecting an arrest and it went horribly wrong...
purr
"I might well get a sense that George Floyd was putting up a grand performance"
PARDON MY CYNICISM...
SHALOM...Z
Amazing perspective, ZETAR. Modeling the concept in your post for the Floyd arrest, there's a ranging from more or less staged to 100% real event X, and then, using the videos (phonecams, police bodycams & security footage) framed with charges of racist and murderous intent of police, a highly politicized version Y of said event may have been foisted on the minds of the US and world public through misinformation. Count George Floyd, Derek Chauvin and OUR PERCEPTION OF REALITY as Collateral Damage in our misinformation model. BIG QUESTION: would you be prepared to speculate / share insight as to who is making such purported play and the objective? purr
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