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Post by maxxhazzard on Apr 24, 2023 22:43:15 GMT
1978 pictures from Roy are similar to the navy pics of 2019: i also find it interesting that ufo encounters can never be proven;
is it by design that Humans will never get proof?
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Post by purr on Aug 12, 2023 20:31:16 GMT
To my mind the Valentich case is a historical, well documented and compelling example of both a pilot and his aircraft being taken in mid-flight by unidentified anomalous phenomena.
purr
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Post by HAL on Aug 13, 2023 10:22:31 GMT
There are a few things wrong with the case.
For instance he was supposedly flying to an airfield that would have no facilities open. But did not request them.
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drwu
Full Member
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Post by drwu on Aug 13, 2023 17:47:18 GMT
There are a few things wrong with the case. For instance he was supposedly flying to an airfield that would have no facilities open. But did not request them. Yes...and there is no actual evidence other than he claimed he saw something....many think it was a case of an inexperienced pilot who became confused and crashed in the water.
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Post by purr on Aug 13, 2023 20:10:04 GMT
There are a few things wrong with the case. For instance he was supposedly flying to an airfield that would have no facilities open. But did not request them. Yes...and there is no actual evidence other than he claimed he saw something....many think it was a case of an inexperienced pilot who became confused and crashed in the water. Drwu, yes indeed, yet what "many think" constitutes one of many theories explaining Valentich' disappearance, as well as that of his plane, for which there is no actual evidence. purr
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Post by purr on Aug 13, 2023 20:38:25 GMT
There are a few things wrong with the case. For instance he was supposedly flying to an airfield that would have no facilities open. But did not request them. Certain stories were since the disappearance circulated, like the request for opening the destination airfield requiring to be made before take off, as well as his purported intent to get some crayfish (and so on, his drug run, supposed infatuation with UFOs, debts with drug lords, lack of flying skills, him spiraling his plane at Venus or a meteor shower resulting in desorientation and/or a deadly stall etc. etc.) all of which are rumors or theories for which no proof is available, no witnesses named, on record and under oath. With drugs involved, to make this hard it should entail a criminal investigation, including an arrest warrant for a (very much alive) fugitive on the run. HAL, the rumors could possibly be found true. BUT THEY SHOULD NOT LEAD INVESTIGATING THE CASE. Since this was a flight that went missing, we must approach it as possible plane crash first, missing pilot second. Logical question was and is: what are the facts of this case. purr
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Post by purr on Aug 13, 2023 20:50:39 GMT
1978 pictures from Roy are similar to the navy pics of 2019: i also find it interesting that ufo encounters can never be proven; is it by design that Humans will never get proof? Hi Max, here is one of the facts of the Valentich case: ACTUAL TRANSCRIPTION OF MELBOURNE FLIGHT SERVICE
The transcript portion of the communication between Valentich and Melbourne Flight Service as released by the Australian Department of Transport follows: (FS - Flight Service, DSJ - Frederick Valentich aircraft designation).
1906:14 DSJ Melbourne, this is Delta Sierra Juliet. Is there any known traffic below five thousand?
FS Delta Sierra Juliet, no known traffic.
DSJ Delta Sierra Juliet, I am, seems to be a large aircraft below five thousand.
1906:44 FS Delta Sierra Juliet, What type of aircraft is it?
DSJ Delta Sierra Juliet, I cannot affirm, it is four bright, it seems to me like landing lights.
1907 FS Delta Sierra Juliet.
1907:31 DSJ Melbourne, this is Delta Sierra Juliet, the aircraft has just passed over me at least a thousand feet above.
FS Delta Sierra Juliet, roger, and it is a large aircraft, confirmed?
DSJ Er-unknown, due to the speed it's travelling, is there any air force aircraft in the vicinity?
FS Delta Sierra Juliet, no known aircraft in the vicinity.
1908:18 DSJ Melbourne, it's approaching now from due east towards me.
FS Delta Sierra Juliet.
1908:41 DSJ (open microphone for two seconds.)
1908:48 DSJ Delta Sierra Juliet, it seems to me that he's playing some sort of game, he's flying over me two, three times at speeds I could not identify.
1909 FS Delta Sierra Juliet, roger, what is your actual level?
DSJ My level is four and a half thousand, four five zero zero.
FS Delta Sierra Juliet, and you confirm you cannot identify the aircraft?
DSJ Affirmative.
FS Delta Sierra Juliet, roger, stand by.
1909:27 DSJ Melbourne, Delta Sierra Juliet, it's not an aircraft it is (open microphone for two seconds).
1909:42 FS Delta Sierra Juliet, can you describe the -er- aircraft?
DSJ Delta Sierra Juliet, as it's flying past it's a long shape (open microphone for three seconds) cannot identify more than it has such speed (open microphone for three seconds). It's before me right now Melbourne.
1910 FS Delta Sierra Juliet, roger and how large would the - er - object be?
1910:19 DSJ Delta Sierra Juliet, Melbourne, it seems like it's stationary. What I'm doing right now is orbiting and the thing is just orbiting on top of me also. It's got a green light and sort of metallic like, it's all shiny on the outside.
FS Delta Sierra Juliet
1910:46 DSJ Delta Sierra Juliet (open microphone for three seconds) It's just vanished.
FS Delta Sierra Juliet
1911 DSJ Melbourne, would you know what kind of aircraft I've got? Is it a military aircraft?
FS Delta Sierra Juliet, Confirm the - er ~ aircraft just vanished.
DSJ Say again.
FS Delta Sierra Juliet, is the aircraft still with you?
DSJ Delta Sierra Juliet; it's (open microphone for two seconds) now approaching from the south-west.
FS Delta Sierra Juliet
1911:50 DSJ Delta Sierra Juliet, the engine is rough-idling. I've got it set at twenty three twenty-four and the thing is coughing.
FS Delta Sierra Juliet, roger, what are your intentions?
DSJ My intentions are - ah - to go to King Island - ah - Melbourne. That strange aircraft is hovering on top of me again (open microphone for two seconds). It is hovering and it's not an aircraft.
FS Delta Sierra Juliet.
1912:28 DSJ Delta Sierra Juliet. Melbourne (open microphone for seventeen seconds).purr
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Post by purr on Aug 13, 2023 22:26:12 GMT
Maxxhazzard and HAL, veering off along with you guys on the theoretical angle, in my mind there is the question: do we have any real world model for aircraft vanishing with all souls aboard?In the 1970s we (the public) didn't, only speculation and fanciful ideas from science fiction. But times are a-changing. Just before I went online here I did a YouTube search. Normally I search for great 80's music videos. But now I typed Air Disaster Vanished as term. This is what I got: 1945 USAF Flight 19 radio'd in being "lost" over the Bermuda Triangle, then vanished along with one Mariner rescue plane, all souls aboard lost, never found. 1956 USAF B-47 Stratofortress en route from Florida to Marocco, while observed by another plane it entered a cloud (no heavy weather/thunderstorms) and never came out. The B-47 carried a nuclear payload without detonator mechanism, considered high value. After intensive search effort it remained vanished. 1962 Flying Tiger Line Flight 739 from California to Saigon vanished in flight with all souls. Never found. 2016 Indian AF Flight AN 92 vanished in mid flight with all souls, never found. The list actually was longer with no end in sight, since I could add in planes being lost due to mid flight catastrophic failures and collisions from causes unknown. No use yet to add up nr of casualties involved, but cursory results were from this one improvised search between 500 - 1000 passengers and crew presumed dead from either VANISHING or UNEXPLAINED MID FLIGHT FAILURE. Place all of the above in context with Naval F-18 pilot Ryan Graves' testimony under oath before Congress stating that he and his colleagues by multiple sensor observation determined that aircraft share our airspace with UAP that are technologically advanced, having object properties, which pose an immediate and grave threat to air safety, because they fly in close proximity to aircraft, don't adhere to flight safety protocols, causing significant risk of a "mid flight" [collision]. Duh... doesn't mean every plane that vanishes, crashes from unknown causes or gets found after decades automatically had an Encounter of the 3rd/4th Kind. But IF a pilot were ever to radio in an apparent UAP sighting followed by a crash or entirely disappearing... well you get my drift. We are not alone. Especially when flying.purr
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Post by HAL on Aug 14, 2023 11:06:59 GMT
December 3rd 2021 Malaysian MH370 ?
When you look closely at the Valentich case there are a few things odd about it. Even the crayfish part. Apparently the crayfish would have to be ordered ahead of the collection, but no order was placed. Also his mind was not in a good place as he had failed to get the upgrade to commercial pilot.
But we just don't know.
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Post by purr on Aug 19, 2023 16:44:45 GMT
December 3rd 2021 Malaysian MH370 ? When you look closely at the Valentich case there are a few things odd about it. Even the crayfish part. Apparently the crayfish would have to be ordered ahead of the collection, but no order was placed. Also his mind was not in a good place as he had failed to get the upgrade to commercial pilot. But we just don't know. But we try to find out more, HAL. May be the crayfish and his mindset do not compute. But these do not EXPLAIN the core problems of the Valentich case. At core we have the missing plane. A missing pilot. And the radio exchange reporting an unknown object in proximity to Valentich's flight. purr
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Post by HAL on Aug 25, 2023 12:27:48 GMT
December 3rd 2021 Malaysian MH370 ? When you look closely at the Valentich case there are a few things odd about it. Even the crayfish part. Apparently the crayfish would have to be ordered ahead of the collection, but no order was placed. Also his mind was not in a good place as he had failed to get the upgrade to commercial pilot. But we just don't know. But we try to find out more, HAL. May be the crayfish and his mindset do not compute. But these do not EXPLAIN the core problems of the Valentich case. At core we have the missing plane. A missing pilot. And the radio exchange reporting an unknown object in proximity to Valentich's flight. purr The problem is that the crayfish, the lack of arrangement for the landing lights and the fact that he had failed his tests are all verifiable facts. But the actual meeting up with the object is not verified by anyone at all. We only have his word for it. It could easily have been a hoax to cover some other thing we don't know about. Guess we will never know.
You mention flight 19. It is pretty much established that they were led off in the wrong direction by an incompetent flight leader. And that this leader ignored the suggestion that they were going the wrong way. All they had to do was turn around and keep heading West until they hit the coast. No need for ant compass readings. Plus the Gyro compass on aircraft does not rely on magnetism. It is purely a mechanical device. The pilot sets it on the runway and it will carry on operating for a long period without further adjustment.
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Post by purr on Aug 27, 2023 0:31:20 GMT
But we try to find out more, HAL. May be the crayfish and his mindset do not compute. But these do not EXPLAIN the core problems of the Valentich case. At core we have the missing plane. A missing pilot. And the radio exchange reporting an unknown object in proximity to Valentich's flight. purr The problem is that the crayfish, the lack of arrangement for the landing lights and the fact that he had failed his tests are all verifiable facts. But the actual meeting up with the object is not verified by anyone at all. We only have his word for it. It could easily have been a hoax to cover some other thing we don't know about. Guess we will never know.
You mention flight 19. It is pretty much established that they were led off in the wrong direction by an incompetent flight leader. And that this leader ignored the suggestion that they were going the wrong way. All they had to do was turn around and keep heading West until they hit the coast. No need for ant compass readings. Plus the Gyro compass on aircraft does not rely on magnetism. It is purely a mechanical device. The pilot sets it on the runway and it will carry on operating for a long period without further adjustment.
To be more precise, the two references, to Valentich stated intention to pick up crayfish, and to him heading for King Island to connect with friends, as well as not notifying the air field of his arrival, IF factual ought to be verifiable, sure. Yet over the 20+ years I've been reading about this case these three never were raised above rumors, misapprehensions, the anecdotal/inconsequential type remarks we all make as we pass through our daily lives, which become only momentous if for instance we unfortunately are lost without a trace on our way to such errands. (Valentich could have changed his mind / could have been misunderstood by his listeners / could have been the target of a debunking campaign to defuse the claim a mid-air UFO encounter led to the loss of both pilot and airplane.) The only 'fact' I could find in the linkable literature was the somewhat questionable finding that crayfish was out of season, he did neither collect friends at King Island air field, or made the call to get it open for landing, QUESTIONABLE due to his mid flight disappearance. If indeed a mid flight accident of sorts, this would easily account for his failure to make good on whatever his intentions were on making the sortie. On the targeting for debunking: much has been made of Valentich failing pilot tests, yet these were for his ambition to enter the Australian Air Force, which effort seemed to meet with partial success, having failed 5 out of 5 subjects first time, failed 3 out of five second try, thus if he had lived he probably had made a third attempt to enlist. Thwarted/delayed aspirations notwithstanding, Frederich Valentich by all accounts was a licensed private pilot on a path of self betterment. Again, HAL, these are side issues. Just like the UAP question (did he meet with some unknown object or not?). Not the essence at all. The core problem is that a pilot and his plane went missing mid flight, while in radio contact with his controller. Now THAT is a fact. From the perspective of Flight Safety and the Law, the transcript of the exchanges between Valentich and an air traffic controller constitutes both a historic record and a potential dying declaration. Whatever Frederich Valentich said during these last moments of in flight contact may give us information on what caused the disappearance. To dismiss this final conversation a priori as hoax is bizarre. Healthy investigative rigor demands that we at least consider the option of a pilot encountering a physical UAP, with airplane and unknown object on close proximity trajectories. From the testimonies by Ryan Graves and David Fravor before Congressional Committee we know this is a real possibility in Earth skies. I trust you've already checked out the wording of the actual exchange with the air controller in one of my previous posts in this thread. I have read it several times. I've also compared it with its various meteorological / astronomical explanations, as well as debunkings. None of them fit the factual, sequential details of the text, and for this reason I consider the Valentich disappearance as yet UNSOLVED. purr
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Post by HAL on Aug 27, 2023 12:40:35 GMT
Your conclusion is correct. It is unsolved. And will likely stay that way unless someone finds the plane and his bones. We do also have the Kaikoura incident to think about. Maybe there is a connection ? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaikoura_lightsHAL
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Post by cotes777 on Aug 30, 2023 5:03:20 GMT
Purr - "From the perspective of Flight Safety and the Law, the transcript of the exchanges between Valentich and an air traffic controller constitutes both a historic record and a potential dying declaration. Whatever Frederich Valentich said during these last moments of in flight contact may give us information on what caused the disappearance. To dismiss this final conversation a priori as hoax is bizarre. Healthy investigative rigor demands that we at least consider the option of a pilot encountering a physical UAP, with airplane and unknown object on close proximity trajectories."
I agree Purr. The man put his last words on it. Unless he was known to suffer from strong delusions in life, I would lean towards him having an actual encounter of some kind. The discrepancies in flights logs, or his reasoning for being up there could vary but likely has a simple answer; for example due to laziness which tends to be the most likely culprit, or he was smuggling something, or etc. Because the correspondence is valid, the flight did actually occur, and that is what is important.
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Post by HAL on Aug 30, 2023 20:00:07 GMT
No one is doubting that the flight occurred.
It is the odd things about it that raise questions.
What do you mean by 'laziness' ?
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