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Post by purr on Jul 19, 2020 4:00:48 GMT
As promised I'm revisiting Eric Garner's arrest and resulting death.
Here I'm getting to the most important part of this topic, namely how the very footage and witness testimony that causes public outrage over 'Systemic' and individual officers' Racism, the 'backlash', the calls for defunding Police and worldwide protests on the streets equally serves as a factual record DEFENDING those same police officers involved in alleged police brutality.
How may we explain that the same video/eyewitness evidence that proves police brutality and racist attitudes, once in court, serves as evidence exonerating or reducing the charges and final sentence in a criminal trial?
The pat answer is that conveniently vague/all-inclusive 'systemic racism'. Supposedly American courts (even mixed juries) are all somehow 'racist' and can't help but favor whites over black folk. I don't buy it, and the fact of the matter is that in court everyone, including those of Afro-American descent, are equal under the law. Racial Equality militates against police defendants being let off easy because they are 'white' (whatever that means, 98% of all the people I met in life were shades of pink, and/or olive to brown, I'm aware of exceptionally fair skinned & haired people living in the UK and Scandinavia, and those hailing from around former Congo / Central Africa with deep black skin, but somehow I have met almost no one who I would call either 'white' or 'black'), instead their 'actions' are judged. Which is as it should.
I will argue that the reason for the disparity between the initial outrage over these 'brutality' incidents and the eventual legal outcomes for those standing accused of unauthorized force (along with manslaughter to murder charges) is that the videos and media reporting to a large extent frames, even distorts the actual events creating the public perception of police brutality and racist cops out to murder black people. Simply, once the case enters a court of law, the frame doesn't hold up to scrutiny, dissolves as rumors, fabrications and so much shouting. Questions will be once more: 'What really happened' and 'What is the proof the law was broken'?
BACK TO THE ERIC GARNER CASE
Eric Garner (September 15, 1970 – July 17, 2014) was an African-American man. He was a horticulturist at the New York City Department of Parks and Recreation before quitting for health reasons. Garner, who was married to Esaw Garner, has been described by his friends as a "neighborhood peacemaker" and as a generous, congenial person. He was the father of six children, had three grandchildren, and at the time of his death had a 3-month-old child.
Garner had been arrested by the NYPD more than 30 times since 1980 on charges such as assault, resisting arrest, and grand larceny. According to an article in The New York Times many of these arrests had been for allegedly selling unlicensed cigarettes. In 2007, he filed a handwritten complaint in federal court accusing a police officer of conducting a cavity search of him on the street, "digging his fingers in my rectum in the middle of the street" while people passed by. Garner had, according to The New York Times, "recently ... told lawyers at Legal Aid that he intended to take all the cases against him to trial". At the time of the incident, he was out on bail for allegedly selling untaxed cigarettes, driving without a license, marijuana possession, and false impersonation.
At the time of Garner's death, Daniel Pantaleo was a 29-year-old New York City Police Department officer living in Eltingville, Staten Island. He joined the NYPD in 2006 after graduating from Monsignor Farrell High School, and with a bachelor's degree from the College of Staten Island. Pantaleo was the subject of two civil rights lawsuits in 2013 where plaintiffs accused him of falsely arresting them and abusing them. In one of the cases, he and other officers allegedly ordered two black men to strip naked on the street for a search and the charges against the men were dismissed.
Ramsey Orta is a member of Copwatch in New York City who filmed the incident. Following a campaign of alleged police harassment after the video went viral, he was arrested on weapons charges. Al Sharpton made a statement that prosecuting Orta while also calling him as a witness could constitute a conflict of interest.
In February 2015, Orta was incarcerated on Rikers Island. After falling ill multiple times after eating food on Rikers, Orta believed he had been deliberately poisoned. In March 2015, a lockdown was initiated, and Orta could not prepare his own food. The prisoners were served meatloaf by the prison officers. Orta describes that the other prisoners fell ill, vomiting blood, but the guards reportedly laughed and no prisoners were brought to the infirmary. Court documents stated that the prisoners had suffered from various ailments after eating the food. Blue-green pellets were found in the meatloaf, and determined to be brodifacoum, the main ingredient of rat poison. As a result, Orta stopped eating the prison food, only taking food passed to him from his visiting wife. Orta has alleged that prison officers booked him on false or trivial offences in a biased manner, resulting in him not being able to receive food from his wife. Orta also claimed that the prison officers have threatened him, insulted him, beaten him, and deliberately crushed the food from Orta's wife. Orta stated that when he was initially arrested, a police officer told him it would be better for Orta to kill himself before he was jailed.
After prosecutors questioned whether the money raised for his bail was crowd-sourced legally, Orta was released on bail on April 10, 2015.
In 2016, he was sentenced to four years in prison for weapons and drug charges after accepting a plea deal for which the prosecutor agreed to drop charges against his mother. In May 2020, he was released from Groveland Correctional Facility. His release was in relation to the COVID-19 pandemic.
On July 17, 2014, at approximately 3:30 p.m., Garner was approached by a plainclothes police officer, Justin D'Amico, in front of a beauty supply store at 202 Bay Street in Tompkinsville, Staten Island. According to bystanders (including a friend of Garner, Ramsey Orta, who recorded the incident on his cell phone) Garner had just broken up a fight, which may have drawn the attention of the police. Officers confronted Garner and accused him of selling "loosies" (single cigarettes without a tax stamp) in violation of New York state law. Garner is heard on the video saying the following:
Get away [garbled] for what? Every time you see me, you want to mess with me. I'm tired of it. It stops today. Why would you...? Everyone standing here will tell you I didn't do nothing. I did not sell nothing. Because every time you see me, you want to harass me. You want to stop me [garbled] selling cigarettes. I'm minding my business, officer, I'm minding my business. Please just leave me alone. I told you the last time, please just leave me alone.
When Pantaleo approached Garner from behind and attempted to handcuff him, Garner pulled his arms away, saying, "Don't touch me, please."Pantaleo then placed his arm around Garner's neck and pulled him backward in an attempt to bring him to the ground; in the process, Pantaleo and Garner slammed into a glass window, which did not break. Garner went to his knees and forearms and did not say anything for a few seconds. At that point, three uniformed officers and the two plainclothes officers had surrounded him. After 15 seconds, the video shows Pantaleo removing his arm from around Garner's neck; Pantaleo then used his hands to push Garner's face into the sidewalk. Garner is heard saying "I can't breathe" eleven times while lying face down on the sidewalk. The arrest was supervised by a female African-American NYPD sergeant, Kizzy Adonis, who did not intercede. Adonis was quoted in the original police report as stating, "The perpetrator's condition did not seem serious and he did not appear to get worse."
A police sergeant called an ambulance and indicated that Mr. Garner was having trouble breathing, but reportedly added that he "did not appear to be in great distress". Garner lay motionless, handcuffed, and unresponsive for several minutes before an ambulance arrived, as shown in a second video. After Garner lost consciousness, officers turned him onto his side to ease his breathing. Garner remained lying on the sidewalk for seven minutes. When an ambulance arrived, two medics and two EMTs inside the ambulance did not place Garner on oxygen, administer any emergency medical aid or promptly place him on a stretcher. According to police, Garner had a heart attack while being transported to Richmond University Medical Center. He was pronounced dead at the hospital one hour later.
A funeral was held for Garner on July 23, 2014, at Bethel Baptist Church in Brooklyn. At the funeral, Rev. Al Sharpton gave a speech calling for harsher punitive measures to be taken against the officers responsible for the incident.
On July 20, Pantaleo was put on desk duty and stripped of his service handgun and badge. Justin D'Amico was allowed to keep his badge and handgun, but was also placed on desk duty. Four of the EMTs and paramedics who took Garner to the hospital were suspended on July 21. Two of the paramedics were soon returned to their duties, and the remaining two EMTs were doing non-medical work at the hospital pending the Richmond University Medical Center's own investigation into the incident.
On August 1, 2014, the New York City Medical Examiner's Office ruled Garner's death a homicide. According to the medical examiner's definition, a homicide is a death caused by the intentional actions of another person or persons, which is not necessarily an intentional death or a criminal death.
Garner's death was also found by the medical examiner to have resulted from "compression of neck (choke hold), compression of chest and prone positioning during physical restraint by police". Asthma and heart disease were cited as contributing factors. Prior to that, on July 19, 2014, The New York Post published a report, citing unnamed sources, claiming the medical examiner had found no damage to Garner's "windpipe or neckbones" during a preliminary autopsy.
Garner's family hired Michael Baden, a former New York City medical examiner, to perform an independent autopsy. Baden agreed with the findings of the Medical Examiner's Office and concluded that Garner's death was primarily caused by "compression of the neck". Baden reported finding hemorrhaging around Garner's neck, which was indicative of neck compression.
Pantaleo's union, the Patrolmen's Benevolent Association, noted that Garner's hyoid bone was not fractured. Barbara Sampson, the New York City medical examiner, said that "It is false that crushing of the windpipe and fracture of the hyoid bone would necessarily be seen at autopsy as the result of a chokehold."
Rev. Sharpton organized a protest in Staten Island on the afternoon of July 19; he condemned the use of a chokehold on Garner, saying that "there is no justification" for it.
On July 28, a protest organized by WalkRunFly Productions and poet Daniel J. Watts was held in Times Square. The protest was in the form of poetry and many Broadway entertainers participated in the event. Al Sharpton originally planned to lead a protest on August 23 in which participants would drive over the Verrazano-Narrows Bridge, then travel to the site of the altercation and the office of District Attorney Daniel M. Donovan, Jr. This idea was scrapped in favor of Sharpton's leading a march along Bay Street in Staten Island, where Garner died; police estimated that over 2,500 people participated in the march.
In March 2015, Assata's Daughters, a Chicago-based black activist group, formed because they saw a lack of response by public officials to Eric Garner's death.
Grand jury deliberation
On August 19, Richmond County (Staten Island) District Attorney Daniel M. Donovan, Jr. announced that the case against Pantaleo would go to a grand jury, saying that after considering the medical examiner's findings, his office decided "it is appropriate to present evidence regarding circumstances of his death to a Richmond County Grand Jury." On September 29, the grand jury began hearing evidence in the Garner case. On November 21, Pantaleo testified before the grand jury for about two hours. After considering the case for two months, the grand jury decided on December 3 not to indict Pantaleo.
Under New York law, most of the grand jury proceedings were kept secret, including the exact charges sought by the prosecutor, the autopsy report, and transcripts of testimony. Attempts by the New York Civil Liberties Union and others to gain release of that information have been unsuccessful.
purr
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Post by purr on Aug 1, 2020 10:14:15 GMT
When Pantaleo approached Garner from behind and attempted to handcuff him, Garner pulled his arms away, saying, "Don't touch me, please."Pantaleo then placed his arm around Garner's neck and pulled him backward in an attempt to bring him to the ground; in the process, Pantaleo and Garner slammed into a glass window, which did not break. Garner went to his knees and forearms and did not say anything for a few seconds. At that point, three uniformed officers and the two plainclothes officers had surrounded him. After 15 seconds, the video shows Pantaleo removing his arm from around Garner's neck; Pantaleo then used his hands to push Garner's face into the sidewalk. Garner is heard saying "I can't breathe" eleven times while lying face down on the sidewalk. The arrest was supervised by a female African-American NYPD sergeant, Kizzy Adonis, who did not intercede. Adonis was quoted in the original police report as stating, "The perpetrator's condition did not seem serious and he did not appear to get worse."
Why do many suspects while undergoing police arrest, often coupled with restraining techniques, utter the words "I can't breathe" and why do officers fatally fail to believe them? Is it because they are all black or some other identifiable minority and police, those involved in making such an arrest, are racist motivated and wish to kill the person being arrested? A New York Times' investigation uncovered 70 cases (go to NYT source here) of arrests, suspects being taken into custody that involved the suspect vocalizing "I can't breathe", police not believing them / acting on time, ending in their deaths. More than half of them were identified as Black (or: almost half were not). What obviously they did have in common is that they were held in suspicion of having broken the law. In nearly half of the cases The Times reviewed, the people who died after being restrained, were already at risk as a result of drug intoxication, from having a mental health episode or medical issues such as pneumonia or heart failure. Some were experiencing physical and/or mental overload fleeing or fighting. Above all: police officers on scene DID NOT BELIEVE THEM. These 70 arrest/police custody fatalities were varied in terms of race, background, occupation and physical condition, some quite poorly especially long term addicts, others fit enough to put up an impressive fight. Why however where none of them believed when they claimed to suffer from acute asphyxiation?
The shocking answer, taking us in a whole other direction than the Black Lives Matter narrative, may be that police was predisposed, from common sense, from medical knowledge and street experience, to think they were confronted with a case of cry wolf.
[The meaning of the phrase “cry wolf” is to lie. Refers to a person who lies or complains about something even though no real problems are present.] 70 fatalities on police watch appear to indicate that the officers in these cases were literally dead wrong. More should have been done so that some of these deaths had been prevented. But how exactly were they so badly misdirected? I model this as sayng "I can't breathe" during an arrest with restraining techniques applied often warns of a suspect experiencing breathing difficulties. Yet apart from this appropriate use of the phrase, others targeted by law enforcement in relation to criminal activities have over many years adopted it as a slogan, a BATTLE CRY and sophisticated tactic serving as additional layer of intelligent, psychological resistance to a police arrest in progress. I'm talking about people who can breath just fine putting a spanner in the works, using a tactic meant to stop police from taking a suspect in, giving him medical attention instead. Who are they? And where they're all from? I believe they are indeed residents from areas America left behind, inevitably some minorities, some Afro-American, some illegal alien. Actually their race is incidental: the folks who have cried Wolf to the point that street savy police have become inured to the fear a suspect truly is about to suffocate, moreover common sense and medical understanding informing officers one needs to be able to breathe in order to repeat any sentence (like saying "I can't breathe" eleven, any number of times), those folks are living where America's Equality, Emancipation, Civil Rights haven't reached. Places where the easiest path to power and wealth is dealing with Gangs and Cartels. I believe this is the puzzle police have to solve. How to account for more or less bad guys playing the system, one such play repeating "I can't breathe". Suspects in genuine medical distress need to be saved from fatal lapses in judgement. And good police officers need to be defended from getting fired from the profession they love. purr
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2020 14:28:27 GMT
Discretion with an ounce of caution.
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Post by buzzbomb on Aug 4, 2020 1:43:45 GMT
This is a book everybody who claims to be favoring the cops or favoring police reform must read. It is written by a retired LAPD cop. The first half of the book, he recounts his time as a patrolman and then a detective. It is so goddamned disturbing I really wish I'd never read it. You don't want to believe cops do things like this and you don't want to believe that they recruit these people to join the force. Never again will you wonder why when one cop is killing a suspect, the others just stand around and watch. When you watch the Rodney King beating, you understand EVERYTHING you see going on and why it is happening. You'll also understand why black people run even when they can't possibly get away and why you would too if you were in their shoes. I had to stop reading it at night because it was so disturbing, I couldn't sleep. And it wasn't just black people. They can and will ruin you if it suits them and you'll never see it coming until it happens. I can only hope that some of these people got some sort of compensation for what was done to them for no good reason. It is HARD to read this book. You have to force yourself because it's just disgusting, shameful, horrible. But you will never again wonder why cops act the way they do, why the law protects them whenever possible, why they are not there to protect you and why there will never be police reform. I'm much wiser for having read this book but I wish like hell that I never did. I hate thinking about it. I just stay as far from cops as I can get. i don't want them for friends, I don't want them around me. Just stay away from me.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2020 11:06:19 GMT
And when someone is breaking into your house, you gonna call ghost busters? Batman,Superman,mighty mouse? Or just get on your knees and beg big time. And then a 357 magnum blows your brains out clean through your thick skull and brain material is splattered all over the place but your heart still beets pumping blood out your lifeless head with whatever life is left before it all fades away and stops pumping. So maybe, just maybe if you called the police, O, but they have been defunded and most of them are trying to get a cat out of a tree. Sorry!
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Post by buzzbomb on Aug 4, 2020 14:05:23 GMT
No one has ever broken into my house, hotshot. Cops have caused me over the years to lose hundreds of dollars. Burglars? Zero. My life is safer without cops than with them. It's actually that way for most people even if they don't realize it.
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Post by buzzbomb on Aug 4, 2020 14:27:14 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2020 14:54:32 GMT
No one has ever broken into my house, hotshot. Cops have caused me over the years to lose hundreds of dollars. Burglars? Zero. My life is safer without cops than with them. It's actually that way for most people even if they don't realize it. Some issues here, beyond my experience.
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Post by purr on Aug 4, 2020 20:11:12 GMT
This is a book everybody who claims to be favoring the cops or favoring police reform must read. It is written by a retired LAPD cop. The first half of the book, he recounts his time as a patrolman and then a detective. It is so goddamned disturbing I really wish I'd never read it. You don't want to believe cops do things like this and you don't want to believe that they recruit these people to join the force. Never again will you wonder why when one cop is killing a suspect, the others just stand around and watch. When you watch the Rodney King beating, you understand EVERYTHING you see going on and why it is happening. You'll also understand why black people run even when they can't possibly get away and why you would too if you were in their shoes. I had to stop reading it at night because it was so disturbing, I couldn't sleep. And it wasn't just black people. They can and will ruin you if it suits them and you'll never see it coming until it happens. I can only hope that some of these people got some sort of compensation for what was done to them for no good reason. It is HARD to read this book. You have to force yourself because it's just disgusting, shameful, horrible. But you will never again wonder why cops act the way they do, why the law protects them whenever possible, why they are not there to protect you and why there will never be police reform. I'm much wiser for having read this book but I wish like hell that I never did. I hate thinking about it. I just stay as far from cops as I can get. i don't want them for friends, I don't want them around me. Just stay away from me. Buzzbomb, I added a 'like' to your post because I appreciate your critical input. See, this thread is about whatever's worth defending, yet no Police Love In by any means. I worry about GOOD COPS being kind of railroaded, and I intend to make the most rational and factual argument possible to that effect here. Bad cops, corrupt ones and totally inept disgraces for law enforcement without a doubt are a real problem too. Because I cannot read every book referenced, could you summarize the most important findings of L.A. SECRET Police, and the insights you personally take away from it? Thanks,
purr
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Post by purr on Aug 4, 2020 21:13:35 GMT
Time to really pay attention to that BIGGO elephant in the room, the Black Lives Matter movement ..in their own words... ( click on a BLM source page here). 'BlackLivesMatter was founded in 2013 in response to the acquittal of Trayvon Martin’s murderer. Black Lives Matter Foundation, Inc is a global organization in the US, UK, and Canada, whose mission is to eradicate white supremacy and build local power to intervene in violence inflicted on Black communities by the state and vigilantes. By combating and countering acts of violence, creating space for Black imagination and innovation, and centering Black joy, we are winning immediate improvements in our lives.
We are expansive. We are a collective of liberators who believe in an inclusive and spacious movement. We also believe that in order to win and bring as many people with us along the way, we must move beyond the narrow nationalism that is all too prevalent in Black communities. We must ensure we are building a movement that brings all of us to the front.
We affirm the lives of Black queer and trans folks, disabled folks, undocumented folks, folks with records, women, and all Black lives along the gender spectrum. Our network centers those who have been marginalized within Black liberation movements.
We are working for a world where Black lives are no longer systematically targeted for demise.
We affirm our humanity, our contributions to this society, and our resilience in the face of deadly oppression.
The call for Black lives to matter is a rallying cry for ALL Black lives striving for liberation.'
Now I can't say I'm personally familiar with this group / organization, but my mind is open, some of the sentiments expressed seem positive enough and I'm fine with fighting White Supremacists and to stop violence inflicted on the Black Community by state players and vigilantes. No objections here. But the opening sentence presents a problem. Says here that BLM was founded in 2013 in response to the acquittal of Trayvon Martin’s murderer. Mmmm. George Zimmerman shot and killed Martin, he was tried for that action, if memory serves me right a trial by jury (go click on Wiki source here), and acquitted OF MURDER. This had been an example of a 'mixed' jury, I remember an Afro-American lady who served as juror coming out in an interview afterward explaining she had voted for that acquittal, not because she felt he was innocent, but because THE LAW COMPELLED HER to do so. This is it and that's that. Can't get any clearer. Trayvon Martin's death was not murder. I remember one reason for this legal determination was the Defense demonstrating convincingly that this young man tragically lost his life while straddling and beating down on defendant Zimmerman, who lay flat on his back and believed he was in mortal danger when Trayvon spotted his holstered gun and tried to make a grab for it. Zimmerman fired the fatal shot in self defense. Call me crazy, but it seems Black Lives Matter's stated reason for existence is either a falsehood or stemming from a wholly alternative legal reality. At best they have a legal theory published somewhere (I will be looking!) showing why Zimmerman should have been convicted for murder 1. At worst it seems to suggest that if a 'white' person kills a 'black' person, regardless of the circumstances and legal determination, even if that black person is engaged in violent crime, that is by definition a racist murder and 'Justice' will be served by "a life for a life". But maybe this is me being a pessimist, anyone who knows better don't hesitate to set me right.... purr
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Post by buzzbomb on Aug 5, 2020 3:38:47 GMT
This is a book everybody who claims to be favoring the cops or favoring police reform must read. It is written by a retired LAPD cop. The first half of the book, he recounts his time as a patrolman and then a detective. It is so goddamned disturbing I really wish I'd never read it. You don't want to believe cops do things like this and you don't want to believe that they recruit these people to join the force. Never again will you wonder why when one cop is killing a suspect, the others just stand around and watch. When you watch the Rodney King beating, you understand EVERYTHING you see going on and why it is happening. You'll also understand why black people run even when they can't possibly get away and why you would too if you were in their shoes. I had to stop reading it at night because it was so disturbing, I couldn't sleep. And it wasn't just black people. They can and will ruin you if it suits them and you'll never see it coming until it happens. I can only hope that some of these people got some sort of compensation for what was done to them for no good reason. It is HARD to read this book. You have to force yourself because it's just disgusting, shameful, horrible. But you will never again wonder why cops act the way they do, why the law protects them whenever possible, why they are not there to protect you and why there will never be police reform. I'm much wiser for having read this book but I wish like hell that I never did. I hate thinking about it. I just stay as far from cops as I can get. i don't want them for friends, I don't want them around me. Just stay away from me. Buzzbomb, I added a 'like' to your post because I appreciate your critical input. See, this thread is about whatever's worth defending, yet no Police Love In by any means. I worry about GOOD COPS being kind of railroaded, and I intend to make the most rational and factual argument possible to that effect here. Bad cops, corrupt ones and totally inept disgraces for law enforcement without a doubt are a real problem too. Because I cannot read every book referenced, could you summarize the most important findings of L.A. SECRET Police, and the insights you personally take away from it? Thanks,
purr
First off, there are NO good cops because even cops who want to serve honorably are bound by a code and it cannot be broken or that cop will lose his job at the very least. So, if a cop is torturing a suspect, the other cops can't interfere and they won't. They may not like what they are seeing but they don't dare try to stop it or they will lose their jobs. What's bad is that a cop who gets fired for brutalizing or harassing a suspect can go to another precinct and get hired. But if he is fired for breaking this code, he will never be hired anywhere. It will follow him around and other cops will see him as an enemy, as untrustworthy. Mike Rothmiller tried to tell himself that he was good cop. He never harassed innocent citizens, he never brutalized blacks or gays or anything like that. But he wasn't a good cop because he witnessed first hand cops who did harass innocent citizens and lie about on the stand, he saw innocent black people brutalized for no reason whatsoever, he knew how dangerously racist the cops are. He saw it over and over again during his 20 or so years as a law enforcement officer and never once did he ever report it. After watching his partner beat a black man in an alley on a whim and then chase him down the alley in his squad car as they man ran for his life crying with 2 broken hands (his only crime was cutting through the alley as a shortcut home from work), he admitted that he would have lied to protect his partner if the man had later lodged a complaint. Fortunately (for Rothmiller), he never did. Probably too terrified of reprisal. But Rothmiller admitted he would have given false testimony to protect his psychopath partner. The code forced him to remain silent. When he saw a man's life ruined on a charge of homosexual pandering at a highway rest stop and the cop who charged the man later admitted to him (laughing) that the man hadn't done anything--he just wanted to make a bust and didn't feel like waiting around all day so he busted the guy just for being in there answering nature's call. Then he lied on the witness stand about how the man tried to proposition him which ended the man's job, his marriage and lost him everything he owned and forced him to register as a sex offender. Still, Rothmiller said nothing. In fact, he continued to work closely with this other cop for years and watched him continue to do all kinds of unethical and illegal things on a constant basis but never said a word to anyone about it. His silence enabled the shitty behavior to continue unabated. But Rothmiller still thought he was a good cop. Rothmiller was never a good cop until he retired and wrote his book to unburden himself of everything he had been forced to carry inside for all those years. Whether there were investigations in light of the confessions in the book, I don't know. This is how the cops operate and to keep the lid on it, there is this self-enforced code. It makes every good cop a bad cop and every bad cop a worse cop. And it allows the horror to perpetuate itself because no one will dare stand up and put an end to it. It allows systemic racism in every police department in this nation and keeps it there. The code is stronger than anything outside the code itself. So, no reform will ever work. Cops are faithful to the code not to the law. They'll bust YOU for breaking the law (even if you didn't) but they break it perpetually and the law protects them because if people knew the corruption, the brutality, the racism, the misogyny going on in every police department in this county, they WOULD defund the police for the good of the nation. If they knew how all cops lie in sworn testimony, how they assist prosecutors to hang anyone regardless of there being any good reason to do so, that YOU go to prison for perjury if you lie on the stand but nothing happens to cops who lie because they ALL do it, the cops would be defunded right at this very minute. But, you see, that isn't going to happen. Nothing is going to change. Oh, sure, you get your occasional cop who gets caught and is stripped of his badge and maybe even does jail time, but even then, it won't be the jail time you would do if you were busted for that crime. The system bends all the rules for the cops and stacks the deck against you. You cannot protect yourself from a cop. If he beats you, you can't defend yourself. You have to stand there and let him beat you. Raise an arm to ward off a blow and you just resisted arrest. Try to run to get away from the violence being unleashed on you and you fled to avoid arrest. Go up against a cop in a court of law and see who the judge believes and who the jury believes--it won't be you. The only way to protect yourself is to avoid the cops until you have to have contact with them. Somebody robs you or attacks you--yeah, you have to call and report it. And don't feel like a hypocrite doing it because that is supposed to be their damn job! Beyond that, stay away from the cops and hope you don't pulled over for something stupid or get caught up in one of their stupid dragnets. Never give them permission to search your vehicle because they WILL find something. If they want to question you about something, tell you have nothing to say. If they insist, tell them to talk to your lawyer. If they arrest you, say NOTHING at all--that is your right. Don't tell then ANYTHING!
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Post by plutronus on Aug 5, 2020 6:09:24 GMT
This is a book everybody who claims to be favoring the cops or favoring police reform must read. It is written by a retired LAPD cop. The first half of the book, he recounts his time as a patrolman and then a detective. It is so goddamned disturbing I really wish I'd never read it. You don't want to believe cops do things like this and you don't want to believe that they recruit these people to join the force. Never again will you wonder why when one cop is killing a suspect, the others just stand around and watch. When you watch the Rodney King beating, you understand EVERYTHING you see going on and why it is happening. You'll also understand why black people run even when they can't possibly get away and why you would too if you were in their shoes. I had to stop reading it at night because it was so disturbing, I couldn't sleep. And it wasn't just black people. They can and will ruin you if it suits them and you'll never see it coming until it happens. I can only hope that some of these people got some sort of compensation for what was done to them for no good reason. It is HARD to read this book. You have to force yourself because it's just disgusting, shameful, horrible. But you will never again wonder why cops act the way they do, why the law protects them whenever possible, why they are not there to protect you and why there will never be police reform. I'm much wiser for having read this book but I wish like hell that I never did. I hate thinking about it. I just stay as far from cops as I can get. i don't want them for friends, I don't want them around me. Just stay away from me. I have not read that book, but everything BuzzBomb says, resonates with and in me. I have personnally been the target of bad cop behavior; I have personally seen bad cop behavior, especially around black and 'immigrant' neighborhoods; and I have heard of bad cop behaviors. It is also true, that we all need and require police on occasions. As my Dad used to say, "there are two groups of people you don't want to run into at 3:00am in the morning; gang bangers and-or the police!" Dad also used to say, that "cops are a special kind of as.shole!"
plutronus
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Post by purr on Aug 5, 2020 17:34:55 GMT
Buzzbomb, I added a 'like' to your post because I appreciate your critical input. See, this thread is about whatever's worth defending, yet no Police Love In by any means. I worry about GOOD COPS being kind of railroaded, and I intend to make the most rational and factual argument possible to that effect here. Bad cops, corrupt ones and totally inept disgraces for law enforcement without a doubt are a real problem too. Because I cannot read every book referenced, could you summarize the most important findings of L.A. SECRET Police, and the insights you personally take away from it? Thanks,
purr
First off, there are NO good cops because even cops who want to serve honorably are bound by a code and it cannot be broken or that cop will lose his job at the very least. So, if a cop is torturing a suspect, the other cops can't interfere and they won't. They may not like what they are seeing but they don't dare try to stop it or they will lose their jobs. What's bad is that a cop who gets fired for brutalizing or harassing a suspect can go to another precinct and get hired. But if he is fired for breaking this code, he will never be hired anywhere. It will follow him around and other cops will see him as an enemy, as untrustworthy. Mike Rothmiller tried to tell himself that he was good cop. He never harassed innocent citizens, he never brutalized blacks or gays or anything like that. But he wasn't a good cop because he witnessed first hand cops who did harass innocent citizens and lie about on the stand, he saw innocent black people brutalized for no reason whatsoever, he knew how dangerously racist the cops are. He saw it over and over again during his 20 or so years as a law enforcement officer and never once did he ever report it. After watching his partner beat a black man in an alley on a whim and then chase him down the alley in his squad car as they man ran for his life crying with 2 broken hands (his only crime was cutting through the alley as a shortcut home from work), he admitted that he would have lied to protect his partner if the man had later lodged a complaint. Fortunately (for Rothmiller), he never did. Probably too terrified of reprisal. But Rothmiller admitted he would have given false testimony to protect his psychopath partner. The code forced him to remain silent. When he saw a man's life ruined on a charge of homosexual pandering at a highway rest stop and the cop who charged the man later admitted to him (laughing) that the man hadn't done anything--he just wanted to make a bust and didn't feel like waiting around all day so he busted the guy just for being in there answering nature's call. Then he lied on the witness stand about how the man tried to proposition him which ended the man's job, his marriage and lost him everything he owned and forced him to register as a sex offender. Still, Rothmiller said nothing. In fact, he continued to work closely with this other cop for years and watched him continue to do all kinds of unethical and illegal things on a constant basis but never said a word to anyone about it. His silence enabled the shitty behavior to continue unabated. But Rothmiller still thought he was a good cop. Rothmiller was never a good cop until he retired and wrote his book to unburden himself of everything he had been forced to carry inside for all those years. Whether there were investigations in light of the confessions in the book, I don't know. This is how the cops operate and to keep the lid on it, there is this self-enforced code. It makes every good cop a bad cop and every bad cop a worse cop. And it allows the horror to perpetuate itself because no one will dare stand up and put an end to it. It allows systemic racism in every police department in this nation and keeps it there. The code is stronger than anything outside the code itself. So, no reform will ever work. Cops are faithful to the code not to the law. They'll bust YOU for breaking the law (even if you didn't) but they break it perpetually and the law protects them because if people knew the corruption, the brutality, the racism, the misogyny going on in every police department in this county, they WOULD defund the police for the good of the nation. If they knew how all cops lie in sworn testimony, how they assist prosecutors to hang anyone regardless of there being any good reason to do so, that YOU go to prison for perjury if you lie on the stand but nothing happens to cops who lie because they ALL do it, the cops would be defunded right at this very minute. But, you see, that isn't going to happen. Nothing is going to change. Oh, sure, you get your occasional cop who gets caught and is stripped of his badge and maybe even does jail time, but even then, it won't be the jail time you would do if you were busted for that crime. The system bends all the rules for the cops and stacks the deck against you. You cannot protect yourself from a cop. If he beats you, you can't defend yourself. You have to stand there and let him beat you. Raise an arm to ward off a blow and you just resisted arrest. Try to run to get away from the violence being unleashed on you and you fled to avoid arrest. Go up against a cop in a court of law and see who the judge believes and who the jury believes--it won't be you. The only way to protect yourself is to avoid the cops until you have to have contact with them. Somebody robs you or attacks you--yeah, you have to call and report it. And don't feel like a hypocrite doing it because that is supposed to be their damn job! Beyond that, stay away from the cops and hope you don't pulled over for something stupid or get caught up in one of their stupid dragnets. Never give them permission to search your vehicle because they WILL find something. If they want to question you about something, tell you have nothing to say. If they insist, tell them to talk to your lawyer. If they arrest you, say NOTHING at all--that is your right. Don't tell then ANYTHING! Thanks for sharing such an extraordinary insight. Will get back to you with my best answer. purr
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Post by purr on Aug 7, 2020 9:55:19 GMT
Time to really pay attention to that BIGGO elephant in the room, the Black Lives Matter movement ..in their own words... ( click on a BLM source page here). 'BlackLivesMatter was founded in 2013 in response to the acquittal of Trayvon Martin’s murderer. Black Lives Matter Foundation, Inc is a global organization in the US, UK, and Canada, whose mission is to eradicate white supremacy and build local power to intervene in violence inflicted on Black communities by the state and vigilantes. By combating and countering acts of violence, creating space for Black imagination and innovation, and centering Black joy, we are winning immediate improvements in our lives.
We are expansive. We are a collective of liberators who believe in an inclusive and spacious movement. We also believe that in order to win and bring as many people with us along the way, we must move beyond the narrow nationalism that is all too prevalent in Black communities. We must ensure we are building a movement that brings all of us to the front.
We affirm the lives of Black queer and trans folks, disabled folks, undocumented folks, folks with records, women, and all Black lives along the gender spectrum. Our network centers those who have been marginalized within Black liberation movements.
We are working for a world where Black lives are no longer systematically targeted for demise.
We affirm our humanity, our contributions to this society, and our resilience in the face of deadly oppression.
The call for Black lives to matter is a rallying cry for ALL Black lives striving for liberation.'
Now I can't say I'm personally familiar with this group / organization, but my mind is open, some of the sentiments expressed seem positive enough and I'm fine with fighting White Supremacists and to stop violence inflicted on the Black Community by state players and vigilantes. No objections here. But the opening sentence presents a problem. Says here that BLM was founded in 2013 in response to the acquittal of Trayvon Martin’s murderer. Mmmm. George Zimmerman shot and killed Martin, he was tried for that action, if memory serves me right a trial by jury (go click on Wiki source here), and acquitted OF MURDER. This had been an example of a 'mixed' jury, I remember an Afro-American lady who served as juror coming out in an interview afterward explaining she had voted for that acquittal, not because she felt he was innocent, but because THE LAW COMPELLED HER to do so. This is it and that's that. Can't get any clearer. Trayvon Martin's death was not murder. I remember one reason for this legal determination was the Defense demonstrating convincingly that this young man tragically lost his life while straddling and beating down on defendant Zimmerman, who lay flat on his back and believed he was in mortal danger when Trayvon spotted his holstered gun and tried to make a grab for it. Zimmerman fired the fatal shot in self defense. Call me crazy, but it seems Black Lives Matter's stated reason for existence is either a falsehood or stemming from a wholly alternative legal reality. At best they have a legal theory published somewhere (I will be looking!) showing why Zimmerman should have been convicted for murder 1. At worst it seems to suggest that if a 'white' person kills a 'black' person, regardless of the circumstances and legal determination, even if that black person is engaged in violent crime, that is by definition a racist murder and 'Justice' will be served by "a life for a life". But maybe this is me being a pessimist, anyone who knows better don't hesitate to set me right....
purr
I will now briefly consolidate my understanding of the Black Lives Matter movement, having taken the time to do some reading, especially in the words and activist life of the undoubtedly most bright head of the BLM-trinity: founder Alicia Garza, and on the wonderfully accessible (prefer my information real simple ) BLM history page of Wikipedia. My perspective is of an outsider (outside of US that is) looking in at a globally loved / hated, highly decentralized group, increasingly emulated or (mis?)appropriated in their confrontational pursuit of the betterment of black lives. Activism is not my thing, but reading on Mrs. Garza I cannot but feel grudging respect, even admiration for someone who dedicates her life to the Black cause. I got a clear sense this founder believes she is not newly starting, but continuing the age old resistance movement by African Americans once violently displaced and enslaved into colonial America, and now as BLM taking the next logical step in MLK's Civil Rights movement. Nothing wrong with wishing/working ones bud of to see black people, as one would wish for everybody, to thrive. The devil imho is in a detail. This is where I position myself in regard to BLM in the context of the Defend The Police thread. Garza's version of the struggle of Black Emancipation has a deadly flaw. By BLM's uncritical willingness to glance over George Zimmerman's presumption of innocence (and this appears to have become BLM modus operandi in high profile police brutality exposes since), their too slow push-back / downright passivity towards fabricated evidence and misinformation like a deceptively edited soundtrack showing Zimmerman racially profiling Trayvon Martin - global publication of 17 yr. old Martin's child photograph - under-emphasizing Martin's apparent gangbanger aspirations - this athletic youngman's violent assault on Zimmerman resulting in head injuries on record and forming the basis for the eventual self defence plea) they have become hunters of those visiting harm on blacks, in particular zooming in on 'whites'[sic - actually meaning anyone not black], and the practice of law enforcement. This ruthless approach to pursuing potential suspects of white on black violence/murder is made OK by the BLM idea that black folk suffering injustices, treated violently and/or getting killed constitute state violence and systemic racism. (On occasion that might prove correct, but not always, as demonstrated in the spate of acquittals of defendants in alleged racist/vigilante/police violence and murder trials. BLM doesn't get the meaning of INNOCENCE.
I deeply feel that Alicia Garza's movement sins, falls short of Justice in regard of Blackstone's ratio, an idea foundational to modern law expressed by English jurist William Blackstone: It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer
From: Commentaries on the Laws of England, published 1760s.
The fact of the matter is that a significant number, I suspect the majority, of brutality and racist murder suspects in the cross hairs of typical BLM cases, like George Zimmerman, turn out both fully entitled to the presumption of innocence and a formal 'not guilty' verdict. Whatever terrible things were said of them, the loss of income, reputations, careers, their peace of mind, for all practical purposes they are (legally) innocent.
I opine that Black Lives Matter is not about getting justice. They unerringly KNOW the crime and the guilty (State violence & Systemic Racism) before the courts have a say. The hunt is on. The Law applied is Lex Talionis "an eye for an eye", "a tooth for a tooth", a life for a life. purr P.S. I acknowledge there are boundless good and sincere people active within the BLM. No insult is intended and the many positive outcomes of the civil rights movement fill me with joy. This critical thread is meant to show factually that some of BLM's activism constituted injustice and unfounded accusations toward individual defendants herein named.
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Post by ZETAR on Aug 7, 2020 14:52:33 GMT
PURR CORRECTLY ASSESSES..."BLM doesn't get the meaning of INNOCENCE."
SHALOM...Z
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