drwu
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Post by drwu on Oct 29, 2019 20:14:10 GMT
I don't think your rebuttal is as strong nor do they answer my original points ,so I won't take the time to comment on that ,but regarding proof by the phone books.....by all means post the pages from those books and lets see his name. Take your time. Actually I feel that I did adequately address each of your points, but really I wasn't looking for an in-depth debate anyway. I wanted to acknowledge your reply with the courtesy of an answer. Regarding the newspaper article and phone book information, that information appeared in this Daily Beast article: www.thedailybeast.com/why-did-the-fbi-raid-the-home-of-the-biggest-alien-truther While it's not proof, it does prove I'm not fabricating info. Flat I don't feel that you have fabricated anything, and that you have been fair in your comments. But regarding the phone book issue ;that has been mentioned many years ago , and I have been following the ufo enigma for a long time. While the Daily beast mentions that aspect there is no actual phone book to look at as far as I know. It's easy for Lazar to say his name was in there, yet who has actually seen this? And does anyone who worked there recall him? If not ....why not? To me all of this seems to indicate that Mr Lazar is not being completely truthful. I'm not sure why anyone should believe anything he says when he has never supplied one darn thing to support his tale..not one. and btw....even if he worked in 'some capacity' at Los Alamos...it does not mean he was at area 51 nor worked on alien craft.
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Post by flatearth on Oct 30, 2019 2:34:23 GMT
I don't feel that you have fabricated anything, and that you have been fair in your comments. But regarding the phone book issue ;that has been mentioned many years ago , and I have been following the ufo enigma for a long time. While the Daily beast mentions that aspect there is no actual phone book to look at as far as I know. It's easy for Lazar to say his name was in there, yet who has actually seen this? And does anyone who worked there recall him? If not ....why not? To me all of this seems to indicate that Mr Lazar is not being completely truthful. I'm not sure why anyone should believe anything he says when he has never supplied one darn thing to support his tale..not one. and btw....even if he worked in 'some capacity' at Los Alamos...it does not mean he was at area 51 nor worked on alien craft. Likewise, I've been following UFO related news for some time now. As I said in my opening comments, I always thought Lazar was a very good story teller, nothing more, until recently. His understanding of physics always did impress me however, and while I consider myself to be a science-minded individual with a good understanding of the subject, the knowledge that Bob Lazar displays far exceeds mine, which clearly indicates formal training. He got it from somewhere, yet no one seemed to find out where. A thorough investigation of his past would have revealed his actual past; where he went to high school, university, and where he actually worked. If his past truly was erased, none of that would be there either, which apparently is the case. Either that or those who investigated his past were not very good at it. If Lazar has no "actual" past, he has nothing else to add. Lazar gave plenty of information in his interviews. He was very specific about exactly where he worked in Area 51. Not Groom Lake, but specifically S-4, adding that it was several miles south of Groom Lake. At the time not many knew about Area 51. No one knew about S-4. He also described the operation of these craft that 30 years later can be seen on film. A good guess? I think not. He knew. He also mentioned the first names of those he worked with at S-4, but understandably he didn't share more. Then there's element 115. Maybe 20 years after his interview, element 115 was created in a Russian lab and is now called Moscovium. In Wikipedia, the element is described as highly radioactive and unstable, but theoretically it can exist in a stable form, just as Lazar claims does exist. This wasn't common knowledge 30 years ago. The recent release of military recordings that show exactly what Lazar spoke of should also raise questions about why the transparency now? It's interesting that Iran has also recently accused the US of using exotic technology to spy over Iranian air space. If the Lazar story is true, why wouldn't the military do just that? Perhaps the transparency is to let people believe these things are not ours. Why else would Navy pilots (who are not in the loop) be spooked over these encounters? They've got to be alien, right? Anyway, all of this fits together in my mind. I do believe we recovered alien technology and we've been working over 70 years to back engineer it. I have no doubt that at least some of what's being observed is under our control. Some of it probably is not, as we can deduce from what people like Travis Walton have told us, but that's another thread. Flat
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drwu
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Post by drwu on Oct 31, 2019 17:20:58 GMT
I don't feel that you have fabricated anything, and that you have been fair in your comments. But regarding the phone book issue ;that has been mentioned many years ago , and I have been following the ufo enigma for a long time. While the Daily beast mentions that aspect there is no actual phone book to look at as far as I know. It's easy for Lazar to say his name was in there, yet who has actually seen this? And does anyone who worked there recall him? If not ....why not? To me all of this seems to indicate that Mr Lazar is not being completely truthful. I'm not sure why anyone should believe anything he says when he has never supplied one darn thing to support his tale..not one. and btw....even if he worked in 'some capacity' at Los Alamos...it does not mean he was at area 51 nor worked on alien craft. Likewise, I've been following UFO related news for some time now. As I said in my opening comments, I always thought Lazar was a very good story teller, nothing more, until recently. His understanding of physics always did impress me however, and while I consider myself to be a science-minded individual with a good understanding of the subject, the knowledge that Bob Lazar displays far exceeds mine, which clearly indicates formal training. He got it from somewhere, yet no one seemed to find out where. A thorough investigation of his past would have revealed his actual past; where he went to high school, university, and where he actually worked. If his past truly was erased, none of that would be there either, which apparently is the case. Either that or those who investigated his past were not very good at it. If Lazar has no "actual" past, he has nothing else to add. Lazar gave plenty of information in his interviews. He was very specific about exactly where he worked in Area 51. Not Groom Lake, but specifically S-4, adding that it was several miles south of Groom Lake. At the time not many knew about Area 51. No one knew about S-4. He also described the operation of these craft that 30 years later can be seen on film. A good guess? I think not. He knew. He also mentioned the first names of those he worked with at S-4, but understandably he didn't share more. Then there's element 115. Maybe 20 years after his interview, element 115 was created in a Russian lab and is now called Moscovium. In Wikipedia, the element is described as highly radioactive and unstable, but theoretically it can exist in a stable form, just as Lazar claims does exist. This wasn't common knowledge 30 years ago. The recent release of military recordings that show exactly what Lazar spoke of should also raise questions about why the transparency now? It's interesting that Iran has also recently accused the US of using exotic technology to spy over Iranian air space. If the Lazar story is true, why wouldn't the military do just that? Perhaps the transparency is to let people believe these things are not ours. Why else would Navy pilots (who are not in the loop) be spooked over these encounters? They've got to be alien, right? Anyway, all of this fits together in my mind. I do believe we recovered alien technology and we've been working over 70 years to back engineer it. I have no doubt that at least some of what's being observed is under our control. Some of it probably is not, as we can deduce from what people like Travis Walton have told us, but that's another thread. Flat I understand why some people want to believe Mr Lazar...imho it's those who want to believe in the ufo engima as alien to begin with. That's not a denigration just an observation. Regarding his education, there are many smart people who know a lot without having had a very formal education, so I don't think that argument has any legs but I do believe that wherever he lived and worked there would be records and yet nothing shows anything remarkable on him. But we do know he was a very average student in high school. Again there is no evidence 115 is stable..as you said it's theoretical..nuff said on that. I'm not sure how you think the recent military recordings prove anything Lazar has said.....and again simply because uaps or ufos exist does not mean anything Lazar ha said is true. There is no logical chain there. If it 'fits together in you mind' that's good for you....but I suspect you are a believer to begin with which always biases the investigation into truth. Just my though as a truly unbiased thinker.
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Post by flatearth on Nov 1, 2019 1:32:01 GMT
I understand why some people want to believe Mr Lazar...imho it's those who want to believe in the ufo engima as alien to begin with. That's not a denigration just an observation. Regarding his education, there are many smart people who know a lot without having had a very formal education, so I don't think that argument has any legs but I do believe that wherever he lived and worked there would be records and yet nothing shows anything remarkable on him. But we do know he was a very average student in high school. Again there is no evidence 115 is stable..as you said it's theoretical..nuff said on that. I'm not sure how you think the recent military recordings prove anything Lazar has said.....and again simply because uaps or ufos exist does not mean anything Lazar ha said is true. There is no logical chain there. If it 'fits together in you mind' that's good for you....but I suspect you are a believer to begin with which always biases the investigation into truth. Just my though as a truly unbiased thinker. As I said initially, I did not originally believe there was any truth to the Lazar story, so while I'm open to accepting eyewitness accounts regarding the subject, I don't believe everything I hear. It takes an open mind to revisit things that may have previously seemed questionable. In this case the body language video made me reconsider the Lazar case because we now have more information that confirms some of the things he talked about. One military video shows that the object did an unexpected rotation as it moved., and I believe one of the pilots even made a remark about it. That rotation was described by Lazar long before this video was made public. That's the connection between the videos and the Lazar story. Details are important and this one is huge. Moscovium didn't even exist 30 years ago, yet Lazar talked about a stable version of it. 30 years ago element 115 was purely theoretical. Today our science says that a stable version of it is theoretically possible. Do you see a trend? And don't forget the accuracy of Lazar's description of Area 51. 30 years ago they didn't even acknowledge the existence of Area 51. I'm just repeating myself here, but I feel that some of my thoughts perhaps were not made clearly enough. Hopefully this helps. Flat
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Post by purr on Nov 1, 2019 7:41:16 GMT
Today I'm 59 any I've come to believe UFOs are intensely 'personal'. Meeting them is a path walked, however weird and unbelievable, by humans and aliens together, a personal experience of the inquisitive mind, our eternal spirits and fate as its unfolds in our lives.
SHALOM...Z
EDIT TO ADD:
HAL Oct 25, 2019 21:54:15 GMT 1 HAL said: Happy birthday Purr. The colloquial British English phrase I learned during my teenage years in the UK "today I am 59", fairly economically translates the Dutch (=my native tongue): "Ik ben nu 59". The latter phrase more accurately (& plodding imo) translates as "By now I have reached 59 years of age" which does not carry the (erroneous/unintended) message 'my birthday today'. Which actually it was not. Apologies. Isn't that one of Sysconfig's marvelous Persians, ZETAR? Back to Lazar. My take on this is that (regardless of his body language which to me comes across as a combination of Nerd / high functioning Autism / darn honest) this guy was no Los Alamos / Area 51 janitor turned conman. I believe him. And however outrageous this may seem to dr Wu (and many other reasonable people) this to me indicates somebody, that is America the nation state when its BIGGEST SECRET was on the line with unlimited funding and reverse engineered technologies available, went to extraordinary lengths to erase his true academic past and work history. I also think they considered killing/'suiciding' him, the cheapest and most unethical option, but for whatever reason decided against it. Lazar was thus successfully marginalized, at least to the general public. Me, (and many of us, like Flatearth) are pleased he's still alive and are always very interested in what he has to say.
purr
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drwu
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Post by drwu on Nov 1, 2019 19:24:20 GMT
I understand why some people want to believe Mr Lazar...imho it's those who want to believe in the ufo engima as alien to begin with. That's not a denigration just an observation. Regarding his education, there are many smart people who know a lot without having had a very formal education, so I don't think that argument has any legs but I do believe that wherever he lived and worked there would be records and yet nothing shows anything remarkable on him. But we do know he was a very average student in high school. Again there is no evidence 115 is stable..as you said it's theoretical..nuff said on that. I'm not sure how you think the recent military recordings prove anything Lazar has said.....and again simply because uaps or ufos exist does not mean anything Lazar ha said is true. There is no logical chain there. If it 'fits together in you mind' that's good for you....but I suspect you are a believer to begin with which always biases the investigation into truth. Just my though as a truly unbiased thinker. As I said initially, I did not originally believe there was any truth to the Lazar story, so while I'm open to accepting eyewitness accounts regarding the subject, I don't believe everything I hear. It takes an open mind to revisit things that may have previously seemed questionable. In this case the body language video made me reconsider the Lazar case because we now have more information that confirms some of the things he talked about. One military video shows that the object did an unexpected rotation as it moved., and I believe one of the pilots even made a remark about it. That rotation was described by Lazar long before this video was made public. That's the connection between the videos and the Lazar story. Details are important and this one is huge. Moscovium didn't even exist 30 years ago, yet Lazar talked about a stable version of it. 30 years ago element 115 was purely theoretical. Today our science says that a stable version of it is theoretically possible. Do you see a trend? And don't forget the accuracy of Lazar's description of Area 51. 30 years ago they didn't even acknowledge the existence of Area 51. I'm just repeating myself here, but I feel that some of my thoughts perhaps were not made clearly enough. Hopefully this helps. Flat For me a 'rotation maneuver' by a UAP doesn't confirm that Mr Lazar's tale is true. Again 115 was theorized about before Lazar mentioned it but he did mention it early....but I think any bright person could dig around and use something like that. Again 'area51' is not new and has been known about long before Lazar...the public knew it as Groom/Papoose Lake for a long time. This idea that it was unknown is a lie. Again...if he wants to be belived then he needs to support his tale with something...anything. For me there is nothing more to talk about on this since the same points get brought up over and over and get knocked down over and over.
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drwu
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Post by drwu on Nov 1, 2019 21:44:09 GMT
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Post by nyx on Nov 2, 2019 21:42:11 GMT
One has to wonder why after 30 years we are still discussing Bob Lazar?
Stanton Friedman claimed he is the worst fraud, but did the government did wipe away his personal history?
Or did the government want him to talk about UFO’s as part of misdirection?
I find his voice very sincere, which means nothing.
He is our only connection to that place called Area 51 which puts people into a magical spell.
Only Bob Lazar knows the real truth!
And because of that, the name Bob Lazar will not be so easily forgotten.
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Post by flatearth on Nov 4, 2019 3:13:39 GMT
drwu, Thanks for posting the links. After reading the 2018 article by Tom Mahood, I had many issues with his statements, but upon reading the older one, at least some of them were resolved. In summary, Younger Tom was more with it than Older Tom. Older Tom has become militantly closed minded. His 2018 article opens by dismissing the Lazar explanation of how so-called anti-gravity craft work. Tom says that he holds a Masters degree in Physics and focused on the study of gravitational propulsion. That's impressive, so I guess this gives him special insight on how a device like Lazar says he studied would set off gravitational wave detectors. Degrees notwithstanding, anyone with an ounce of common sense knows that it's impossible to make such a claim without testing such a device firsthand. All this shows is that there is extreme bias here, nothing more. More interesting and informative reading is in the older article. Tom does a good job of breaking down Bob Lazar's history and effectively pokes holes in his story by providing sources. What I especially liked was that he also provided links to some of the replies he received from a friend of Bob Lazar. That friend, Gene Huff, gave insight into Lazar's personality which shows that there probably isn't a simple answer to some of the apparent inconsistencies and discrepancies in his life story. Gene also described the circuitous path that Lazar took to get his degrees and why his name wouldn't show up in the records. While this doesn't prove anything, it does offer an explanation from an inside source, and does provide a good counter to the case made by Tom Mahood. Again, thanks for the links. It made for some interesting reading, and I was impressed that Tom Mahood included links to rebuttals from Gene Huff in his website. While it's understandable that anyone like Bod Lazar be put under a microscope, the correlation of Lazar's claims to what we now know to be true is what is truly important. While some may wish to dismiss and ignore this evidence, it remains in the public domain for anyone who wishes to recognize its significance. I do, and I believe that Bob Lazar is telling the truth. Flat
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drwu
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Post by drwu on Nov 4, 2019 19:07:45 GMT
You said: "the correlation of Lazar's claims to what we now know to be true is what is truly important.: Can you elaborate on that because as I said before nothing he has said about ufos seen recently makes me think he's confirming anything and to me that's wishful thinking on the part of those who want to believe in him. The fact remains that nothing he has said has ever been verified..not by an co-workers or valid records. Why? IMHO that should bother any intelligent person who is after the truth. Some old ideas.....could he have worked there in some menial position and after being fired made up his tale..? Or perhaps he is an agent of disinfo..? He talks a good game...just like an agent trained to would.
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Post by flatearth on Nov 5, 2019 3:55:33 GMT
You said: "the correlation of Lazar's claims to what we now know to be true is what is truly important.: Can you elaborate on that because as I said before nothing he has said about ufos seen recently makes me think he's confirming anything and to me that's wishful thinking on the part of those who want to believe in him. The fact remains that nothing he has said has ever been verified..not by an co-workers or valid records. Why? IMHO that should bother any intelligent person who is after the truth. Some old ideas.....could he have worked there in some menial position and after being fired made up his tale..? Or perhaps he is an agent of disinfo..? He talks a good game...just like an agent trained to would. The rotation maneuver of the object captured in the gun camera footage is the same as what Lazar described all those years ago. While you say it is not important, it says to me that Lazar is indeed familiar with these craft. How else would he know? The rotation is certainly odd and seems counter intuitive to us, but Lazar said that's how they work, basically falling into a zone of displaced space created by the "gravity projectors". He described these craft 30 years ago and now we see that they move just as he said. I don't think he was any of those things. Gene Huff addressed those ideas very well. drwu, if I can't get you to agree with me, that's all right with me and I respect your opinion. I appreciate your responses and I'm glad that you have returned to Casebook! Flat
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drwu
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Post by drwu on Nov 5, 2019 17:52:23 GMT
You said: "the correlation of Lazar's claims to what we now know to be true is what is truly important.: Can you elaborate on that because as I said before nothing he has said about ufos seen recently makes me think he's confirming anything and to me that's wishful thinking on the part of those who want to believe in him. The fact remains that nothing he has said has ever been verified..not by an co-workers or valid records. Why? IMHO that should bother any intelligent person who is after the truth. Some old ideas.....could he have worked there in some menial position and after being fired made up his tale..? Or perhaps he is an agent of disinfo..? He talks a good game...just like an agent trained to would. The rotation maneuver of the object captured in the gun camera footage is the same as what Lazar described all those years ago. While you say it is not important, it says to me that Lazar is indeed familiar with these craft. How else would he know? The rotation is certainly odd and seems counter intuitive to us, but Lazar said that's how they work, basically falling into a zone of displaced space created by the "gravity projectors". He described these craft 30 years ago and now we see that they move just as he said. I don't think he was any of those things. Gene Huff addressed those ideas very well. drwu, if I can't get you to agree with me, that's all right with me and I respect your opinion. I appreciate your responses and I'm glad that you have returned to Casebook! Flat Thanks for the return welcome. I don't think Gene Huff addressed them well at all...but again that's my opinion. Based on the many problems with his tale and his actions over the years, it surprises me that any one would take his story at face value. I believe that nothing will come of his tale (unless he provides something..) and that there will be no coming disclosure about ufos. Only time will tell.
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drwu
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Post by drwu on Nov 7, 2019 18:46:45 GMT
Just an update....I heard that John Lear has recently said online that Lazar 's new book is wrong and Lazar is a fraud. I'm not sure what he means or knows about this but he once supported Lazar I believe. an old video with Lear... www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4azB7NfERk
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Post by flatearth on Nov 9, 2019 4:52:24 GMT
Just an update....I heard that John Lear has recently said online that Lazar 's new book is wrong and Lazar is a fraud. I'm not sure what he means or knows about this but he once supported Lazar I believe. an old video with Lear... www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4azB7NfERkI did a quick search and could find nothing that described what you heard. All that means is that I'm probably not the best researcher, but I did find an interview with John Lear that unfortunately is ridiculously long (and I didn't get through it all), but in it Lear explains how he met Lazar and how they became friends. Some interesting info. This interview was posted on Sept 18, 2019, so it's pretty recent. Nothing I've heard suggests that he and Lazar are no longer on the same page, but perhaps something in the Lazar book has changed that. Flat
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drwu
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Post by drwu on Nov 9, 2019 15:55:41 GMT
^ Yes...what I read/heard was that Lear doesn't agree with much in Lazar's new book.....and they were once 'friends' but apparently he thinks Lazar is an opportunist these days and that he never really trusted him. I read this on Alien Hub....I'll try and get the link.
It was a Facebook post......not sure how to post it.
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